PEACH'S SECRET - In Another Castle Indeed!

Wow, some of you commenters are AWFUL! See- SOME of you. Not ALL commenters. Because you're responsible for your own behavior, not that of all other posters.

BlueSue, you have an issue with black women drinking Riesling? Seriously? How is preference for German wine related to race? It's unfortunate you witnessed fights, but you were not "bitten by dogs" for 6 years. It's notes like fussing about wine choices that reveals your racism.

As people have noted, lots of different types of people are rude customers- old people, young people, rich people, poor people, city people, farm people, large groups, single diners. What do we learn from this? NO particular characteristic is associated with being a poor customer, so if you want to earn tips, treat EVERYONE well! You're in the service industry, that's your job! If you think you're seeing a 'pattern', you're not, because your own experience disproves it!

I love to dine out, and I've had every kind of server imaginable. Guess what- the ones who offer me nicer service get a larger tip.

How black people are treated by others, is a constant subject of research study. But you know what isn't studied? How black people behave. That's the missing piece and might go a long way towards explaining WHY black people are treated as they are. The assumption -- which is never verified -- is that black people as a group behave no differently than any other demographic.

So I'd like to see this particular restaurant study redone, and this time, measure the number of times each ethnicity is overly aggressive or overly demanding of the wait staff. Only by measuring the behavior of black people could we accurately verify if the response to that behavior is due to unfair stereotyping or is due to the actual "bad" behavior of black people.

I'm also thinking of another study, where black school kids were punished more harshly for the same offense. I mentioned that study to several teachers and they all said the same thing: that black kids behave badly at more frequent rates than any other demographic, which is the reason teachers crack down on them faster. Again, the assumption is that black kids behave just like any other demographic, when this information has not been verified.

Categorizing a group of people based on one's personal experience is what everyone in this thread is doing. It only stings when it's your group. I haven't attacked anyone for what they've said here. In fact, outside of the "not a neat post" folks, you are the first person who's got a problem with anyone in this thread.

[deleted - no personal attack, please]

In other breaking news: 100% of waiters give great service to good tippers and poor service to bad tippers.

For similar reasons, cabbies, even black cabbies, will not pick up black men off the street. Too dangerous. Too bad, but the money just isn't worth the possibilities of being robbed, ripped off, or even killed.

BlueSue could not have said it any better! I too am a server & have been for many years while I've been going to school. My son is half black & I date a multitude of races. Last week there was a stabbing at my table at my restaurant-guess what race they were...while there are of course exceptions to every rule, EVERY WORD BlueSue said it TRUE!!!! I have always said that if I had been a sociology major I would totally want to write a research paper proving that these so called, "stereotypes" are actually based in fact--therefore, not racist!

Like I said; if it can be reasonably expected from the statistical data, then people will not consider it "prejudice" they will call it "good business sense".

But if this wasn't a business setting... things would be a lot different.

I think the facts of the article are fine. What needles me is the implication that the observed results are due solely to "racism" and the servers' "perceptions." If you are going to spend this much time and effort on such a study, it would be quite simple to collect a little more data and find the actual tipping values for each "group" you are observing. Then we could have actual science and not some kneejerk guilt trip waste of time. Of course, if you are not afraid to use some tortured logic, you can find injustices of all kinds under every rock.

i feel you on the boing-boing thing, ratz, though i didn't stop visiting the site because of the political soapboxing thing(though that was annoying). it was mostly because their mods don't respect differing opinions. the last straw was when one of their mods demanded that I desist from commenting(in my defense, this was after my 3rd comment, not like my 50th or something ludicrous) on a particular article because he/she felt that they and another poster had addressed my argument and i was just repeating myself. i haven't been back since. so yeah, boing boing blows these days. can't argue with you there. the difference for me between neatorama and boing boing is that to me, the people here seem a lot more respectful and are open to dissenting opinion. for example, over on boing boing bluesue would have been run through the gauntlet for even trying to suggest that in her experience, african-americans are poor tippers. it says a lot for this site and its readers that people can express what might be construed as an unpopular opinion without being crucified for it.

Why are people so butthurt by articles? I don't like everything posted on neatorama but guess what I do... I skip over them and read the ones that I like *shock gasps!*

Anyway, as for the article, very interesting but would like it to be done in a different area with a larger black waiter ratio just to see if they also have the same opinion.

Anywho... I know if all waiters think like this, they're extremely disappointed when they serve my family's table (inlaws that is). They are the cheapest bunch of white folk out there. Not demanding or rude or anything, but they sure don't tip well at all even for excellent service.

I wouldn't call this neat, I stopped reading boingboing because it'd just devolved into Cory's political soap-box, please don't do the same to neatorama.

So in conclusion, America still doesn't like black people...

We've come so far.

Amen, Crystal! Well said, sister.

Thanks for the article- very neat. And thanks BlueSue for your observations- very neat also. And when I think of neat things, I think of things that get people to think, wonder, and seek understanding. If that means a little discomfort, so be it. At least this site seems to deliver articles in a respectful tone, even if the material isn't everyone's personal taste. (Personally I skip things about zombies and other gooey things- they're just not that neat to me and that's okay!)

I'm always amused by the folks that crow about this or that not being "neat"...jeez y'all don't read it if you don't find it interesting...and as long as this blog remains free, the bloggers can post as they like. Keep up the good work bloggers :)

Saw this research in headlines yesterday, but I didn't stop to read it. This was all done in central North Carolina? Well, no wonder! The ONLY time I ever had to leave a restaurant because my multi-race family couldn't get served was in Raleigh, NC. Maybe they could try to ask in other places.

Eh, ignore the haters. I found this to be interesting. Give me more articles like this and fewer "from the annals of improbable research" which are unfunny and bland.

I am a waitress. I have been for the past 6 years. I have worked in a somewhat upscale place for the past 4, and an inexpensive seafood place for 2. This is about 20 minutes outside Los Angeles. I am as liberal as they come, a big ole lefty. But after having literally thousands of interactions with a huge cross-section of people, unfortunately I can confirm all the stereotypes are true.

BASED ON MY OWN OBSERVATIONS, black people are very difficult to wait on. They are demanding. They like a lot of ranch dressing. They order $40 steaks well done and complain about the cooking time. They drink very sweet drinks, including wine. Every black woman I've waited on in my current restaurant who ordered wine, ordered a riesling.

At the seafood place, you would not believe the treatment I got from black folks. It was humiliating, and detailing it here would never be believed and would offend (even more) outrageously. Just think of every awful thing that could be done or said to those who serve and it happened to me by black folks. They fight each other. We had to call the cops every weekend for fights. Not only among the men! They walk out on checks. I had three black people give me REALLY BAD counterfeit money. The black people who patronized that place were on a lower economic scale than the place I'm at now. ("Um, $28 on this card, $16 on this card, and $23 on this card...will that cover it?")

No, this does not happen with patrons of other races. I've never had to call the cops for a fight amongst white folks, Asian folks.

Last night I had a single black lady in my section. I did more work for her than I did for any other ten people that night. Came in 10 minutes to close, wanted dinner AND dessert (even though kitchen closed at 11pm Sunday night) -- not just any dessert....a chocolate souffle. Kitchen staff had to stay late to make it, because she didn't want it arriving too early. When her food arrived, she sent me on literally ten trips to fetch things -- water, no, I need no ice. I need a lemon. I need chili pepper flakes. I would like the wine list. No, I will have a Bailey's coffee. At 10 minutes before the kitchen closed, I had 6 other tables who were getting neglected because this one lady couldn't give me her demands either 1.) prior to receiving her food, or 2.) all at once.

The tipping rates for these folks HAS gotten better. At the cheap seafood place, it was $5, no matter if the bill was $100 or $50. A lot of times, zero.

I consciously try to not give inferior service to black people when they come to my section. But if you had been bitten by dogs for 6 years, you would be afraid of dogs. Waiter behavior is based on customer behavior.

I actually think, though, that this is a cultural thing, not really a race thing. Urban black folks tip differently in their own culture.

There are two really great black ladies who come in my current restaurant maybe once every two weeks. They drink excellent wine, dress beautifully, and are the sweetest ladies on the planet. They tip great. They live in a predominantly white area...draw your own conclusions. My point is though, that if they were treated badly on their initial trip to my restaurant, they wouldn't have returned again and again. So even though black folks have "bitten" me in the past, we try to get over it and treat the next folks nicely even though the odds are greater that I will get the same treatment I've gotten from the vast majority of blacks in the past. MY past. THIS IS ALL MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.

Data is always neat.

Sandi - Agreed. But one can't help but wonder if this is a chicken-egg situation. Do AA's tip poorly because they're given bad service, or are they given bad service because they tip poor. I'd be curious to see further study in this area.

"Findings show that many servers perceive African-American customers to be impolite and/or poor tippers."

If a majority of the servers percieve this to be true there is probably some merit to it.

This really isn't political. It's sociological. Human behavior is fascinating .. neat, if you will.

No one is being required to read EVERY article. Skip what you don't like.

What's political? Facts from a study? Sorry reality has a bias, guys.

I agree with Fae, the political stuff seems out of place here and it is given PLENTY of coverage on many other sites. Not Neat.

I love Neatorama precisely because it doesn't do politically hot issues. Why would you want to mess up that?

At the same time; waiters will consciously give better service to attractive women and well-dressed men.

The underlying fact that pretty much everyone is self-absorbed and only concerned about #1 is the one consistent cause of all these problems.

The waiters' behavior is justified by the statistical data. It's like an insurance actuator determining that a 25-year old male driver is at higher risk of being in an accident than a 25-year old female driver. From their perspective it's not prejudice, it's just good business sense.

The waiters can fall-back on the same excuse insurance companies (and pretty much everyone else uses) and who can fault them for it? Economics determine morality.

Personally, I also found this interesting. I guess you can't please everyone. I waited tables for many years and I was shocked when I started serving to hear other servers racial stereotypes and I always tried to provide the best possible service to everyone. However, as I gained more experience I found that non-whites consistently tipped less than white customers. It would be interesting to see a study showing whether this was actually true or a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I agree with Fae. Not neat.

Actually, we've always talked about non-neat stuff on Neatorama, albeit at a much lower rate than other blogs out there.

I posted this because I found it interesting. There's no requirement to like every single post on Neatorama, or even to read every single one.

Sad to see you go, though Fae.

BTW, I'm speaking as a person who has been on the receiving end of deliberately poor service in restaurants because of race. I KNOW the issues...but the issues aren't why I was coming to this site.

This site is a cool site when it talks about neat stuff. Apparently, that's not enough. You are bound and determined to morph it into a clone of every other issues driven site out there. Why?

Ask yourself what you can offer the internet that isn't offered by others? EVERYBODY AND THEIR DOG has an opinion blog. Why do you feel the need to bring that into Neatorama? Doing so offers nothing new and is making Neatorama just another wannabe issues site.

What you COULD have done instead is focus exclusively on "Neat" stuff. Kinda like your name implies. THAT would bring something new and different. A site where one can kick back and get away from all the troubles of the world. Sadly, you disagree. But hey, it's your site, do what you want to with it.

And it's my time to do what I want to with it. This will be my last time visiting Neatorama.

Bye

this seems accurate, based on reports from numerous friends in the restaurant industry over the years. interestingly, what this article doesn't state(and what i've personally heard from both white and african-americans that wait tables) is that african-american waiters and waitresses themselves also avoid predominantly african-american tables because of the tipping stigma. but it's not just a race thing. waiters also don't like: elderly women, business professionals at lunch, foreigners, teenagers, college students....i mean, really, the list could go on and on. any time my husband and i go into a restaurant, we're immediately shuttled to the seats nearest the bathroom/kitchen because hostesses judge that we look like we're in our early 20's, thus won't spend much, and so aren't worth sitting in a decent location. the restaurant business to me, is all about stereotypes. it's what happens when you pay people 3 dollars an hour and except them to live off of tips.