Punctuation Hero or Vandalizing Grammar Nazi?

Stefan Gatward has been wrestling with inner turmoil ever since the Birmingham city council began removing the apostrophes from the city's signs this January.

Finally, his frustration was too much to bear, and Stefan took it upon himself to fix the signs. But he didn't stop there ...

He will not join the 'five items or less' queue at the supermarket, in protest that the sign should read 'five items or fewer'.

He also gets annoyed when people-neglect the 'Royal' in 'Royal Tunbridge Wells', and was vexed when he saw a major chain store advertising sales with signs saying 'until stocks last' rather than 'while stocks last'.

'I fought for the preservation of our heritage and our language but some people seem happy to let that go. I'm not,' he said.

Link - via tywkiwdbi

From the Upcoming ueue, submitted by coconutnut.


For ages I've wanted to dress up like The Beadle and apply for an Arts Council (no apostrophe) to be the Apostropher Royal.
I'd walk round with a long stick with a marker pen on the end, and a bell. My duties would include correcting errant apostrophes, then ringing the bell loudly to expostulate on what had been wrong and why it was now better.

Actually, the interview with the bloke that I saw, he certainly wasn't a grammar fascist. He happily admitted that he isn't the final word on the subject and that people might come along and correct him, but that at least he was trying to put right the more obvious ones.
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i feel bad for him:

"He also gets annoyed when people neglect the 'Royal' in 'Royal Tunbridge Wells'..."

"Mr Gatward moved into his flat in Tunbridge Wells, Kent, 14 months ago."
"A spokesman for Tunbridge Wells council..."

poor guy...
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what this guy needs to understand is that language evolves; the correct usage is the one which people understand; 'until stocks last' and 'while stocks last' are no different in the meaning they convey to the ordinary person. Preserving language use for no other reason than to keep things the same is living in the past.
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While language does morph over time- (when was the last time you wrote 'shoppe'?) I agree on some of his points when it comes word use; 'Until stocks last' doesn't even make any sense.
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Yay. It's when people stop paying attention to doing a job right, that spelling gets confusing.

Larfin. You wrote "Nazi's" instead of "Nazis". Why?

Dale. The point is that if there is no distinction when to use an apostrophe and when not to, then there ends up with no point using an apostrophe at all, right?
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Hero in the sense that what he's actually fighting is linguistic and literal barbarism and the Government attempts to dumbing down the English language.
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He's free to do all this (although not getting in the line for a limited number of items at the grocery store because of what the sign says is a bit radical) but he shouldn't be surprised if most of the population couldn't care less, since most of that population would say "I could care less".
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This person should move to the Province of Quebec and be the English counter-point to the French language Nazis found there currently, it would then be a fair and balanced affair.

Tsk, language!
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While I could care less about the whole debate, I am surprised that people actually called him a vandal for this. I'd just call him a guy with too much time on his hands.

Whether he's write or wrong is one for the history books. I'm just surprised someone cares enough to threaten to call the police.
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"The 62-year-old's defence of the apostrophe comes after Birmingham council announced it would scrap the punctuation from council signs for the sake of 'simplicity'."

So his paintbrush-wielding was not a reaction to a language's natural evolution but to bureaucratic interference. Huzzah!

I've been tempted to join the Apostrophe Posse myself at times, though my fantasies never stretched beyond strategically placed Post-it Notes -- not only to add the needed but to obscure the unnecessary (the so-called "greengrocers' apostrophes"). And sometimes to add a curl to a straight hatchmark being used as an apostrophe (but that's a typographical issue, not a grammatical one)...

Speaking of sign augmentation/vandalism.... There was a Los Angeles artist, Richard Ankrom, who added on to a overhead freeway sign on the 110 to show the proper lane to be in to make the transition to the 5 North. In broad daylight, wearing appropriate construction-worker gear, trying to match style and color as exactly as possible. Caltrans decided to keep it up!
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I agree with a lot of this. As a writer it pains me to see the language being mangled. However, to not use the "5 items or less" lane seems like cutting your nose to spite your face.
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I don't know if I should take taka's bait from comment 20 and 21. He/she corrects himself/herself on write vs. right but leaves the one of the most potent misuses of a phrase that drives grammar nazis insane hanging..... I'll just leave it be.
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Let's be honest here, English really doesn't HAVE any grammar. There's some conventions, but none of the rules are what you'd call hard-and-fast compared to other languages, and when you think about it most of the things people get really bent out of shape over - the who/whom thing, or split infinitives, or not starting a sentence with a conjunction, are completely illogical and silly.
Most of the so-called grammar rules - the Split Infinitive thing for instance - were unknown in our language prior to 150 years ago or so. They were imported by pretentious victorian fops who were obsessed with Latin, and hit upon the stupid idea of superimposing Latin rules on a germanic language that has no real relationship to it.
So my vote is that the guy is a "Vandalizing Grammar Nazi." He'll be the first one up against the wall when the linguistic revolution comes, beat to death by a bunch of esperanto enthusiasts who will themselves be beat to death by a bunch of flabby mammas boys speaking klingon.
Then the rest of us will enjoy a nice fried chicken picnic and go home content in the knowledge that there'll be no more gramatically-based pain or suffering in the anglophonic world.
Excepting the whole "I-before-E" thing, of course...
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My hero!

I often joke in grocery stores that the paper, pens & tape will "never move," while pointing to the "Stationary" sign.

Also, I got my business partner to correctly order two Burritos Supreme at Taco Bell instead of two Burrito Supremes.
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"Also, I got my business partner to correctly order two Burritos Supreme at Taco Bell instead of two Burrito Supremes."

Being simultaneously pedantic and incorrect is always an entertaining combo... Would you call up the dealership and order two Fords Mustang, Nicholas?
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"Until stocks last" and "while stocks last" do not mean the same fucking thing, at all. "Until stocks last" is fucking nonsense phrasing used by children.
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"Would you call up the dealership and order two Fords Mustang, Nicholas?"

I'm sure he wouldn't since "Mustang" is the noun and Ford is the adjective (a noun acting as an adjective, to be more precise). In "Burrito Supreme," "Burrito" is the noun and is therefore the correct word to be pluralized.

Incidentally, having an adjective follow a noun is rare in English, but it does happen. Other examples:

attorneys general
courts martial
poets laureate
heirs apparent
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I applaud Mr. Gatward. I would be out there doing the same thing, except it's a futile effort here in the States.

Yes, language evolves. That doesn't mean that there aren't any rules, or that those rules shouldn't be followed.
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Stefan Gatward deserves our full support in his noble crusade against bad English!

Does anybody have his email address? I'd very much like to hear his opinion on the use of dashes in web addresses:-

http://www.timacheson.com/Blog/2009/aug/friendly_url_should_not_use_dashes_to_represent_spaces
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I've noticed that the people with the biggest hard-ons for correcting (supposedly) incorrect English, have a very limited understanding of English grammar. This thread is rife with errors, mostly from the "who are you calling me a Nazi just because I want to moan about things I can't & shouldn't change" camp.

My English professor would have pissed himself laughing at this guy and you lot.

Full disclosure:
English is not my first language.
Ha! Burn sukkaz!
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@Wes "As for ā€œ10 items or less,ā€ I suggest Mr. Gatward read this:

http://www.theslot.com/than.html"

That's just moving the problem. It should still be "10 items [or fewer than that.]"
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Now (twirls his Victorian mustache), if we could only get those darkie immigrants to speak the Queen's English instead of that infernal pidgin abomination...
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so nasty here today... I don't think the term 'Nazi' is fitting, but poor English usage should be curtailed a bit, otherwise we'll be grunting before long.
my favorite, seen on Broadway near Larch in Vancouver BC, on a restaurant sign:
"We do catering."
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Grammar represents convention just as does every other aspect of the language. Convention changes slowly, the the language we speak today will look like Old English to the Americans of, say, 2509. So what? So the Grammar Nazi is not complaining that the rules of grammar change, so much as he is objecting that they are changing too fast to suit him. Poor fellow.
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Queens Road: a road of Queens (whether royal or disoriented, we don.t know).
Burritos Supreme vs Burrito Supremes: Buttito Supreme is a name (because both words are capitalized) so "Burrito Supremes" is correct.
"Catering" carries the connotation (to the local readers) of food catering. "We cater" could leave the reader wondering to whom they cater.
"10 items or less" is seen in Wal-Mart and Winn Dixie (a low-priced, poor service food store); "10 items or fewer" is seen in Publix (a higher-priced food store.
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he'd be in hell if he came to the United States and ordered a pizza. Unfortunately, it seems most pizza places here have 3 sizes: medium, large, and extra-large .... but no small pizza. drives me nuts. Can't have a medium if you don't have a small....
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It is not the abcens'e of apostrophe's that is irksome, it i's the use of apo'strophe's that should not be there that is 'so annoying.

''''''''''''''''!!!!! Take that! Apostrophe abuser!
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I've been a proofreader for 25 years and counting. The surest way to cure Stefan of this nonsense is for him to become one too. Having a job monitoring the grammar of business reports, dockets, annual reports, etc. will teach him that 1) correcting grammar is a bloody bore, which in turn will make him realize that 2) a sign in a store or elsewhere is the least of his troubles, and 3)the prescriptive grammar he is valiantly defending is for the most part arbitrary, disagreed upon, and stilted. For instance, if he were to peruse a copy of Merriam Webster's Dictionary of English Usage, which adheres to a descriptive, comparative analysis of English usage, he would find, much to his confusion, that the self-appointed grammarians of yore who concocted most of the prescriptions and proscriptions we learned in school were simply making it all up to suit themselves. Proper grammar is defined by the common usage of educated writers, not what grammarians have tried to enforce. Grammarians have been at odds with and ignored by those educated writers (and everyone else) for centuries. No one is interested in defending the grammar of the past, only the present, familiar grammar of today. What does that tell you?
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Well, at least he appears to have found a hobby to keep his mind sharp in old age, more power to him. That said, the line between mild OCD and becoming a supervillian is a fine one.
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A combination laundramat and saloon was opened, and it was of course named "Sud's", as if a fellow named Sud ran the place.

The English language is the standard for the world because, while difficult to master, it admits to the precision demanded in a technological world. Incorrect usage of apostophes is not evolution, but poor training met with a lack of concern about communication. Why would someone knowingly choose to misuse an apostrophe? Because it looks better that way, or the word is no longer a word, but a graphic(?) so what it "means" doesn't matter?
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Dale, you are an absolute idiot. Language may evolve, that does not mean people need to neglect common sense. "Until stocks last" makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER! Furthermore, you should applaud someone who respects the proper use of a language, rather than butchering it with net-speach and texting abbreviations and all that disgusting garbage used today.
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It is not the apostrophe's fault people misuse it or leave it out where it should be used.

The real problem is that he did not pay the required apostro fee.

Regarding missing apostrophes:

Nazi, or to Nazi, the apostrophe, that is the question.

Not see, or to not see, the apostrophe, that is the question.

Which is better? The pun on Nazi or the second sentence?

Come on now, why do so many people keep using the Nazi word when the behavior they are describing is nothing like what the Nazi party and its members/government did during its buildup and reign in the decades covering 1920-1950?

Old joke: How did Hitler tie his shoe?
Answer: With little Nazis.
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It is not the apostrophe's fault people misuse it or leave it out where it should be used.

The real problem is that he did not pay the required apostro fee.

Regarding missing apostrophes:

Nazi, or to Nazi, the apostrophe, that is the question.

Not see, or to not see, the apostrophe, that is the question.

Which is better? The pun on Nazi or the second sentence?

Come on now, why do so many people keep using the Nazi word when the behavior they are describing is nothing like what the Nazi party and its members/government did during its buildup and reign in the decades covering 1920-1950?

Old joke: How did Hitler tie his shoe?
Answer: With little Nazis.
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Proper grammar is nice and all, but that's sounding a little anal about it. Language certainly does evolve, dictated by common use. I use "they" for an ambiguous or inclusive gender pronoun all the time because it's less wordy than "he and/or she", and while it's technically incorrect, it's also in common use and makes sense to those who read it.
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Don't get me started on pronouns. On tv the other day, a girl started her sentence with "Me and him are..."

At least she used the plural form, so it wasn't totally wrong.
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What about apostrophes for contractions? A store near me has named itself T'is Country. Do they even know/care why there is an apostrophe in the word 'tis?
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Les, perhaps they meant This Country and were pulling out the 'h'. Apostrophes and the use there of are important to create a clear and concise sentence. They are not optional, they indicate a possesive or the loss of a letter (the its, it's debate notwithstanding). Changing the use of a word is not the same thing and indeed may evolve with the language. I am only 35 but look back fondly on my grammer classes and wonder what in the world we are teaching kids these days. How many people can use there/their/they're properly these days? Makes me nuts.
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I am ecstatic to discover so many other people who feel the same way! Although I have not yet gone so far as to carry a giant red pen with me everywhere I go, I do swipe my finger across posters to add an imaginary apostrophe, and I have on several occasions stopped at customer service to point out errors.

Perhaps the worst example yet was the sign for Spokane, Washington's public schools, which read something like, "One in eight Spokane students drop out." If the public school system cannot even make a simple subject and verb agree, how inspiring must its curriculum be to students?
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re: Carl's Jr.

The object of Carl's and Jr. was contracted out of existence; the original name of the establishment was "Carl's Junior Restaurant". The Restaurant part got dropped and the Junior went to Jr., to make the sign easier to read - or so I was told, years ago.

Much the way shoppers at the A&P store may never have heard of "The Great Atlantic and Pacific Tea Company", or residents of "La Puebla de Nuestra Senora, ReiƱa de los Angeles" refer to it by the initials of the last two words.
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This whole I before E thing only works if you don't have weird neighbours.

I was always taught that you should not start a sentance with a conjunction or a preposition. How does the Bible start?

It should not be the Society for Pedants it should be the Socity of Pedants!
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The "I before E" rule is a generality, and must be supplemented. The handiest (yet still incomplete) phrase I recall was "Neither foreigner seizes the weird leisure." All of the words in that sentence violate the I/E rule when correctly rendered, with the exception of the word "the".
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I find it bothersome when schools concentrate on one area of language at the exclusion of others. They strive for technical precision in some classes, while they preach aesthetics in others. It's rare that appreciation, beauty, history (or evolution, to tie in with other comments), and grammar are taught together, or at least related to one another in any meaningful way.

For instance, American schools might yammer on about the apostrophe for use in contractions and possessives. They attempt to explain the latter as a manner in which to shorten the phrase, "the _______ belonging to the ______." Uncommon, however, is the teacher who explains the possessive is itself a contraction, a remnant from Old English in which the suffix '-es' was appended to words.

Even more rare is the teacher who'll go beyond that as a mere, dry fact and engage the pupil's natural curiosity and sense of wonder. The realms of beauty, history, and identity which may be found in language may be hinted at, but they're usually not revealed.

It may well be a lack of time, an overcrowded classroom, or whatever obstacle-of-the-month an educator wishes to cite, but it results in a lack of engagement with, and connection to, language. It becomes just another tool among many, one that a person really doesn't have to care too much about. Disinterest ensues, wonderment is lost, and students (we) go on to grasp at all the other bright and shiny tools offered up by the educational establishment.

After all, it's much easier to drown out the intuition of a piece of oneself that's missing if the senses are dulled from overload; much easier to advance into the dazzles of technology if one doesn't have to admit it an intimate part of who and what he or she is.

TL;DR -

Language is an important part of being human. Evolution is unavoidable, but how much of our humanity do we want to slaughter? Perhaps this choice is ultimately the deciding factor between "progress" and "cancer."
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for nach (28) in reference to taka: You showed great restraint regarding taka's entry, but I can't help myself.
Dear taka, you began your post with "While I could care less about the whole debate...." In order to be able to care less about a particular subject than one cares presently, one would have to care to some degree, at least a little bit. If you meant to state that you did not care at all, you missed the mark. Of course, it would be simplest just to say "I don't care," but in the interest of verbosity or emphasis, one might properly state that one "could not care less." This implies that one's state of concern is so abysmally low that a reduction is not possible. To put this concept in the vernacular, one would have a "zero care factor."
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I support this poor fellow. It's true that some phrases or words change in time, but in my point of view english speakers not only have to prevail the correct use of the language, they have to also realize that 90% of the non-english population is trying to learn the language and when apostrophes, words or phrases are misused, it just confuses the other people trying to learn it.
I'm not refering to day-to-day conversation but at least in governmental signs or shopping windows, i guess i mean public displays.
Just because we have gotten used to hear or read phrases like "10 items or less" it doesn't mean it's the correct way.
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"Jack, Grammarians usually ARE educated writers. Did you think they came from some strange planet just to upset lazy ignoramuses?"

Yes, pretty much actually. But to the difference: the educated writers who are referenced in descriptive grammar analyses don't include grammarians themselves. Descriptive comparisons would lose all meaning if grammarians were included as examples, since it is the grammarians directives that are being assessed. But I think you already knew why grammarians, who are merely writers about writing, would be excluded, right? What I find most amusing in descriptive references are the numerous examples of grammarians contradicting their own rules, often applying the usage in the very same assertion in which they are condemning it!
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I'm just surprised at all the spelling errors people who correct others make.

Something that should be fixed in the english language is it needs to be more phonetic. What is up with the silent letters? Or the "ch" making a "k" sound? And all the vowels make all kinds of sounds. It can be very difficult for a foreigner to learn. Maybe text-speak will fix some of those problems...
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While normally irritated with improper punctuation and grammar when encountered in daily life, I am going to have to side with the poster above who states that Burrito Supremes is the correct way to order more than one of a Burrito Supreme. Simply put, the word "Supreme" in Burrito Supreme is not governed by the usual rules concerning adjectives in this sense. It is merely part of the entire title of that particular menu item. It would be like going to a restaurant and ordering two Salisburys steak. Obviously you would say Salisbury steaks because the entire phrase "Salisbury steak" is what you are ordering. At a normal Mexican restaurant if you are ordering two burritos, supreme style, well then yes, you would certainly say "two burritos supreme." At Taco Bell, however, a Burrito Supreme is a Burrito Supreme. Also, I am aware that there are probably many punctuation issues in this post, but frankly, everybody's human, so I don't think I'm going to lose any sleep over it.
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