Well, that assumes an exclusive relationship. The rule is that his nose will grow if he lies - but not that his nose will grow IF AND ONLY IF he lies. If his nose grows despite him having told the truth -- or if his nose growing rendered a previous lie into the truth -- it doesn't violate the previous stipulation that his nose will always grow if he did lie.
Assuming the growth of his nose is an involuntary reaction to a given set of circumstances, if he told you his nose would grow, he's making a prediction about a future event which he has no control over. A lie involves knowing the truth and making a claim against it. So, Pinocchio only lied about knowing the future. Wait, dammit!
What you don't see is what happened before his statement. Before his statement, he told a lie. Now his statement makes perfect sense, and there's no paradox at all.
Pinocchio's nose will only grow if he intends to deceive or mislead someone else, not if he makes any untrue or unfalsifiable statements because the intention is for him to learn a moral lesson; no moral lesson involved, no growth. Thus, if he says; "My nose will grow now" nothing happens, also if he says; "My nose will grow and I will somehow benefit from it" it won't grow either because that Blue Fairy won't let the wooden deviant get away with anything.
Intention plays a key role. If he believed his nose would grow then he wasn't lying and, when it didn't grow, he would merely be wrong. If he intended it as a lie, it would grow. It just wouldn't grow "now". There would be enough of a delay to expose the lie. After which, his nose would grow as punishment for the lie.
The statement is not a lie, hence the nose will not grow. If it were a lie, the nose would grow.
When he spoke those words, the statment itself was true because the consequences were known: If he were to lie, the nose would grow, therefore he is not lying when he tells makes the statement: "My nose will grow now."
The growing is canceled out by the truth in this situation. The growth cannot happen for the statment to be a lie, therefore the statement can only be true in this scenerio.
I have this posted at my office at work. Major props to anyone who understands the paradox without me having to explain it to them. Sadly, there are only one or two who get it.
Seems like trying to solve a 3 dimensional problem using only 2 dimensions.
If he lies, his nose will grow. If he tell the truth, his nose won't grow. However, at that instant he did told a truth and it didn't happen, it became a lie and his knows will grow a moment later.
In 3 dimensions, there isn't a point where his nose wouldn't grow. Validity of his truth (T or F) and time frame would always make him a liar if he spoke those words at any point.
If no time frame is given (moving this back into 2 dimensions) there isn't enough information to determine 'nochos' truth in this paradox.
According to the basis of the movie, the whole "nose growing upon lying" logic was innately based on his CONSCIENCE and his ETHICAL SCRUPLES.
The statement in and of itself may wind up being true once his nose grows, but the fact that he was being unscrupulous when making the initial statement means that his nose SHOULD grow.
Along this same line of logic, snitching in an unethical manner may also be the truth, but I think Disney would be remiss if his nose didn't grow for mean-spirited and unethical truth-telling.
Maybe he is not referring to his nose, and that other part will grow instead. Then his nose grows because he lied about what part will grow and that part not growing.
"if he knows that his nose will not grow when he says my nose will grow then he knows he is lieing and his nose will grow, in which case he knows that his nose would grow which would make the statement fact, so we must conclude that pincochio does not know the state of his own nose. " -http://gemssty.com/2009/03/01/pinocchio-paradox/
Perhaps it is not possible to lie about ignorance. Lying requires information and to give false information. Proceeding Pinocchio's declaration, Pinocchio will learn if his assessment was correct or not, but not before. If my theory is correct, nothing will happen to Pinocchio's nose. Pinocchio will just look stupid and stupidity isn't the same as lying.
This is the classical liars paradox, which comes when you try to figure out if the following expression is true or false: "this statement is false!" for more of this see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liar_paradox In this case the nose growth is a consequence of his statement beeing false, so it can be substituted with "this statement is false!"
the first statement would imply intention, a FALSE according to the rules set by the story and the nose would indeed grow. Since the expression should be evaluated ONCE and only ONCE, it does not matter that the end result is a TRUE. Reducting it at an extreme level, it would be the same thing as a !(FALSE) returning a TRUE.
He is lying because in this universe, individuals cannot predict the future with 100% certainty. If he says it will grow, his intent is to deceive by making a prediction. Therefore his nose will grow as he has lied.
There is a difference between Lying and being mistaken. In this case he would be mistaken. He is only making a statement about what he believes will happen.
Not a Paradox at all. however, nothing would happen since it is not a lie.
If time didn't exist then the statement would be true. But at the moment he says it will grow "now" is a lie. Therefore it grows after the moment it doesn't grow because he told a lie.
He is making a statement about the growth of his nose, which depends on the statements he makes. Therefore the truth of his statement is indeterminate, making this a true paradox.
It can't be a true statement, because if it were, his nose would immediately grow and the statement would then become false. By the same token, it can't be a false statement, because if it was, his nose would immediately grow, thereby the statement would become true. But as any logician would tell you, a statement cannot "become" false when it was once true, or vice versa. Either it's true or false, or neither. In this case, it's neither.
yeah I agree at THE TIME he stated the statement it was a lie so it grew which made it the truth but did not effect the prior falsehood. Just because something subsequently becomes true does not mean it was not false.
I think the only issue here is why there aren't more breakfast nicknames on these type of sites like CrepeMan or FrenchToastMan?? They can join forces where syrup gives them their powers and they fight against less superior breakfast creations like Eggs&ToastMan and OmeleteFever.
Keep on rocking PancakeMan; keep spreading the good word.
We are all aware Pinocchio is a fictional character, and allegedly made of wood when these words were written for the story. We are also all aware that wooden dollies cannot talk.
Therefore, there is no paradox to me. Pinocchio speaks only in our imagination. He never uttered those words so there's no paradox to respond to.
Pinnochio's nose grows under stress (ie telling a lie. If the subject is not under stress his nose will not grow. Same principles apply to modern day polygrapghs, even though they were not invented for another 50 years after the story was first published. The truth cannot be measured, only the subject's reaction to making stements he knows to be false.
If Pinocchio says his nose will grow and he is telling the truth (i.e. his nose actually grows) than his nose will grow independent of the nose-growing spell. If Pinocchio says his nose will grow and he's lying and specifies a period in which the event will happen, then his nose will grow once the period of time has passed and his statement has become practically false. If Pinocchio says his nose will grow and he's lying and does not specify a period for the event to happen, then his nose will always be "on the brink of growing" because he will always be "on the brink of lying", but never quite lying since his statement is not yet untrue for every moment in time.
This of course takes a consequentialist view of lying - a lie only qualifying as a lie once it is false in a factual sense, whatever the intention of the liar.
In an intentionalist sense of lying the actual consequences are irrelevant to the matter: a lie would be defined as a statement intended to be false, no matter if it proves false or not. If Pinocchio intends his statement as false then his nose will grow, which would make it consequentially true, but intentionally false. If he intends his statement as true, then his nose will not grow due to the nose-growing spell, even if it doesn't grow due to other factors, and is therefore consequentially false, since Pinocchio intended his statement to be true, and thus it is not intentional lying, but it is consequential lying.
If we take a mixed definition of lying: where we should call "lying" that which is both intentionally and consequentially false, "telling the truth that" which is both intentionally and consequentially false, and "making an uninformed statement" any case where the intentional and consequential truth of the statement differ then we'd have the following cases: If Pinocchio is intending to lie and his nose does not grow – then he has told a lie and his nose would once again be "on the brink of growing" since even if he tells an intentional lie, it is not yet a consequential lie, and therefore not a mixed-type lie. If Pinocchio is intending to lie and his nose does grow, then he made an uninformed statement. If Pinocchio is intending to tell the truth and his nose does not grow he once again makes an uninformed statement, which is not affected by the anti-lying spell. If Pinocchio is intending to tell the truth and his nose does grow, then he told the truth, so his nose would not grow further due to the anti-lying spell, despite having grown due to other circumstances.
the first definition of now i came across was: 1. at the present time or moment. the present time/ moment is constantly changing, so there could be a million "now's" in the time it takes him to say now, let alone the time it takes for his nose to grow. my point being that he is lying because by the time he says it, the moment he was talking about is gone, and so his nose will grow.
If he's telling the truth, then his nose will grow, which means he's lying. Telling the truth also causes a paradox.
As a fun side note, he's omnipotent, because if he says, "Either my nose will grow, or I will become a real boy," he has to become a real boy, or it will start a paradox. He could also replace "or I will become a real boy" with any other statement, and that statement must become true, essentially making him omnipotent.
The statement is not a lie, hence the nose will not grow. If it were a lie, the nose would grow.
When he spoke those words, the statment itself was true because the consequences were known: If he were to lie, the nose would grow, therefore he is not lying when he tells makes the statement: "My nose will grow now."
The growing is canceled out by the truth in this situation. The growth cannot happen for the statment to be a lie, therefore the statement can only be true in this scenerio.
Your welcome.
http://asset.soup.io/asset/0722/5266_20a5_390.jpeg
states that pinoccio may be omnipotent because of this paradoxon
If he lies, his nose will grow.
If he tell the truth, his nose won't grow. However, at that instant he did told a truth and it didn't happen, it became a lie and his knows will grow a moment later.
In 3 dimensions, there isn't a point where his nose wouldn't grow. Validity of his truth (T or F) and time frame would always make him a liar if he spoke those words at any point.
If no time frame is given (moving this back into 2 dimensions) there isn't enough information to determine 'nochos' truth in this paradox.
The statement in and of itself may wind up being true once his nose grows, but the fact that he was being unscrupulous when making the initial statement means that his nose SHOULD grow.
Along this same line of logic, snitching in an unethical manner may also be the truth, but I think Disney would be remiss if his nose didn't grow for mean-spirited and unethical truth-telling.
Perhaps it is not possible to lie about ignorance. Lying requires information and to give false information. Proceeding Pinocchio's declaration, Pinocchio will learn if his assessment was correct or not, but not before.
If my theory is correct, nothing will happen to Pinocchio's nose. Pinocchio will just look stupid and stupidity isn't the same as lying.
In this specific instance, what happens will depend on what conditions specifically cause Pinocchio's nose to grow.
In general, I might say that logical circles aren't "true" or "false" in common parlance as they don't have fundamental hierarchical premises.
"this statement is false!"
for more of this see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liar_paradox
In this case the nose growth is a consequence of his statement beeing false, so it can be substituted with "this statement is false!"
He states that his nose would grow on command, which he cannot do since the nose growth mechanism is involuntary - that provides a boolean FALSE
Assuming the nose growth subrotine as
eval(mouth.out) {
if TRUE {
return;}
elseif FALSE {
nose.lenght+=1;}
}
the first statement would imply intention, a FALSE according to the rules set by the story and the nose would indeed grow. Since the expression should be evaluated ONCE and only ONCE, it does not matter that the end result is a TRUE. Reducting it at an extreme level, it would be the same thing as a !(FALSE) returning a TRUE.
...and I'm spent.
PV
Web Developer
He is lying because in this universe, individuals cannot predict the future with 100% certainty. If he says it will grow, his intent is to deceive by making a prediction. Therefore his nose will grow as he has lied.
Not a Paradox at all. however, nothing would happen since it is not a lie.
It can't be a true statement, because if it were, his nose would immediately grow and the statement would then become false. By the same token, it can't be a false statement, because if it was, his nose would immediately grow, thereby the statement would become true. But as any logician would tell you, a statement cannot "become" false when it was once true, or vice versa. Either it's true or false, or neither. In this case, it's neither.
You have an awesome name.
I think the only issue here is why there aren't more breakfast nicknames on these type of sites like CrepeMan or FrenchToastMan?? They can join forces where syrup gives them their powers and they fight against less superior breakfast creations like Eggs&ToastMan and OmeleteFever.
Keep on rocking PancakeMan; keep spreading the good word.
If only more people would read the classics and not go all ZOMG for shit that has been around for millenia.
just like a politician
or a history book
and parts of autobiographies
To me, a lie is a lie but then again i'm just a visitor to this planet.
Therefore, there is no paradox to me. Pinocchio speaks only in our imagination. He never uttered those words so there's no paradox to respond to.
If Pinocchio says his nose will grow and he is telling the truth (i.e. his nose actually grows) than his nose will grow independent of the nose-growing spell.
If Pinocchio says his nose will grow and he's lying and specifies a period in which the event will happen, then his nose will grow once the period of time has passed and his statement has become practically false.
If Pinocchio says his nose will grow and he's lying and does not specify a period for the event to happen, then his nose will always be "on the brink of growing" because he will always be "on the brink of lying", but never quite lying since his statement is not yet untrue for every moment in time.
This of course takes a consequentialist view of lying - a lie only qualifying as a lie once it is false in a factual sense, whatever the intention of the liar.
In an intentionalist sense of lying the actual consequences are irrelevant to the matter: a lie would be defined as a statement intended to be false, no matter if it proves false or not. If Pinocchio intends his statement as false then his nose will grow, which would make it consequentially true, but intentionally false. If he intends his statement as true, then his nose will not grow due to the nose-growing spell, even if it doesn't grow due to other factors, and is therefore consequentially false, since Pinocchio intended his statement to be true, and thus it is not intentional lying, but it is consequential lying.
If we take a mixed definition of lying: where we should call "lying" that which is both intentionally and consequentially false, "telling the truth that" which is both intentionally and consequentially false, and "making an uninformed statement" any case where the intentional and consequential truth of the statement differ then we'd have the following cases:
If Pinocchio is intending to lie and his nose does not grow – then he has told a lie and his nose would once again be "on the brink of growing" since even if he tells an intentional lie, it is not yet a consequential lie, and therefore not a mixed-type lie. If Pinocchio is intending to lie and his nose does grow, then he made an uninformed statement. If Pinocchio is intending to tell the truth and his nose does not grow he once again makes an uninformed statement, which is not affected by the anti-lying spell. If Pinocchio is intending to tell the truth and his nose does grow, then he told the truth, so his nose would not grow further due to the anti-lying spell, despite having grown due to other circumstances.
Anyone else's thoughts on this?
the first definition of now i came across was: 1.
at the present time or moment. the present time/ moment is constantly changing, so there could be a million "now's" in the time it takes him to say now, let alone the time it takes for his nose to grow. my point being that he is lying because by the time he says it, the moment he was talking about is gone, and so his nose will grow.
PROVE ME WRONG
As a fun side note, he's omnipotent, because if he says, "Either my nose will grow, or I will become a real boy," he has to become a real boy, or it will start a paradox. He could also replace "or I will become a real boy" with any other statement, and that statement must become true, essentially making him omnipotent.