Father Tim Jones of the St. Lawrence Church in York, England is getting some flack for advice he preached after his Nativity sermon on Sunday, in which he advocated shoplifting for those in desperate straits.
Both the North Yorkshire police department and local MP Anne McIntosh hav publicly denounced Father Jones' sermon. Link -via Fark
Delivering his festive lesson, Father Jones told the congregation: 'My advice, as a Christian priest, is to shoplift. I do not offer such advice because I think that stealing is a good thing, or because I think it is harmless, for it is neither.
'I would ask that they do not steal from small family businesses, but from large national businesses, knowing that the costs are ultimately passed on to the rest of us in the form of higher prices.
'I would ask them not to take any more than they need, for any longer than they need.
'I offer the advice with a heavy heart and wish society would recognise that bureaucratic ineptitude and systematic delay has created an invitation and incentive to crime for people struggling to cope.'
He added that he felt society had failed the needy, and said it was far better they shoplift than turn to more degrading or violent options such as prostitution, mugging or burglary.
Both the North Yorkshire police department and local MP Anne McIntosh hav publicly denounced Father Jones' sermon. Link -via Fark
And it still is stupid advice.
What does the court do? Either the court has to say "sorry, god doesn't exist", or it has to accept it, or it has to say "not guilty by reason of mental illness"...
Religion isn't the reason; it's almost just always the excuse. If the person is mentally ill they may be pardoned, but if it happens again they will face the consequences. Doesn't matter what you believe, if you break the law, no god can help you.
Stupid, illegal, and immoral. How about instead of advising poor congregants to break the law, you remind them that people are more important than things? Or advise well-to-do members to look around for ways to help? Just because one views "society" as having "failed" doesn't mean you go ahead and return evil for evil by stealing!
Here's an idea, if the Pope is really so compassionate, maybe he could, i don't know, sell off some of those jewel-encrusted hats he likes to wear and feed some hungry people. Vow of poverty my rear.
They no longer have any credibility anyways. They protect pedophile priests, have a vast amount of non-taxed income, and spread misinformation about AIDS telling families in Africa that condoms can cause it to fuel their "pro-life" cause. They are one of the worst corporations on the planet.
Ahh, thanks for the correction. I'm afraid my rhetoric was getting the better of me again.
Yeah, that'll fill their bellies.
I like this priest. He's preaching illegalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegalism). Predictable knee-jerk reaction from the public: "Yo. Break the law do the time, bro". But it's easier to dismiss him than to take it in.
It never hurts to revisit one's opinions:
a) What might the priest be accomplishing by opening up this dialogue?
b) What are you accomplishing by laughing it off?
c) Whom does it benefit when you dismiss what he suggests?
d) Do you think this is a simple publicity stunt or is the priest genuinely committed to the welfare of the poor. Could it be both?
e) What are you doing for the poor this Christmas? Is it a token gesture around the holidays? Or are you helping us find long-term/large-scale solutions?
Yeeaaah.... A society that is largely christian. Nothing has changed. Good old Robin hood mentality, steel from the rich it's okay as long as your poor and you give 10% back to the church.
"Let's not get the tired old Dawkins vs. Religion dungball rolling again. Let's stick to the issue."
Why not? The fundamentalists make snide comments whenever Evolution is brought up, it's only fair that the other side gets a few shots in right? Welcome to neatorama, we're one big happy dysfunctional family.
@Alex
O I C WUT U DID THAR!
It stretches belief to the breaking point to call this guy a Christian. Apparently he does not read the commandments ("Thou shall not steal") nor how people, even through the church, are to help each other.
Why not do what my church is doing? Typically, we have a free will offering that goes to those who are needy--we used to collect this monthly, now we are collecting it twice a month. Allows those who have money to help out those who need money/food/shelter.
Oh America. Rot in hell.
I would think that if he had enough financially needy people in his congregation that he needed to address the situation in his sermon, he would have been better off to address the issue by working to connect his congregation with social services and charities that could aid them.
Could you please show the class where "York, England" is in America? You will then be required to stay after class and write an essay on the importance of reading comprehension.
Charities and social services aren't working, that's his point. They serve to whitewash the issue, cleanse the middle-class guilt over how they molest the poor on a daily basis. The situation the way it is now is not acceptable. So we need radical solutions for radical problems - maybe not stealing, but at least he's giving the dialogue some urgency.
Ok, it's wrong to steal. What would you call the hundreds of billions that have been stolen from the American people over the last few decades, whether from corrupt businesses or their collaborators in government. Those men did not have an urgent need to steal, and yet they did and, in most cases, got away with it.
It seems the U.S. government has given its blessing to these business practices - why should the starving be exempt from the right to profit from the work of others?
And if you want to get more "philosophical" about it, aren't all English people thieves already? They have museums full of stolen artifacts reminding of us of that history. The rampant consumption on display over the holiday is another good reminder of how we, at this very moment, are exploiting developing nations, wasting resources and generally manipulating and destroying things that "are not ours to take".
You say stealing is stealing regardless of size. If a a industrial country pollutes the waterways of a developing country on the other side of the globe, robbing people of their livelihood, is that any different? When a government forces you to bail out thieves is that any different? Have you ever downloaded a song illegally, Melissa? So on and so on.
I'm not asking you to agree with what the priest is saying, but at least allow for the fact that stealing takes many forms and right now small-scale shoplifting for sustenance is hardly the most pressing kind.
This is an issue that requires you to address the idea of property, capital, right-of-ownership, and several other key ideas. It simply isn't as cut-and-dried as it's made out to be.
"Do not have any other gods before me."
How about that one? That is unless intolerance of other religions is actual virtue.
"Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy."
Would I be anti capitalist if I think that store owners that have their shop open on Sunday should be put to death? Hmm. Your right, definatly too liberal.
you people , after getting screwed over by big corporation are still backing them over the needy ?
this is a sad sad world we live in when money comes before life ...
-advocating for fair wages and more jobs
-turning away from affluenza and downsizing. Two great books on the topic are The "Tightwad Gazette" and "Your Money or Your Life". Using myself as an illustration, I moved from my own apartment in a so-so neighborhood to shared housing in a better area and cut my expenses 50%. I am having to learn how to share and get along with others though.
-increasing one's faith, which in turn will alert one to unusual opportunities, supernatural favor and freedom from a poverty mindset. God owes you a living if you follow his/her instructions- not any particular organization. Check out psalm 37:25; S(he) does not forsake the righteous or make them beg for bread. Chronic and long term use of welfare, foodlines and stealing suggest being out of touch with your rights as a follower of God.
Happy Kwanzaa and Christmas to all
Helen McKnight
Toronto, Canada
Excuse me? Aren't most poor people poor because they make poor choices? Why is this my problem now? I don't want to spend higher prices at my grocery store because some self-righteous Jeebusfreak is stealing from the frozen food section. I get enough of that with the standard shoplifting crowd as it is.
I give to one charity and one only: mandatory taxes. If my government does not think you deserve to be on their aid programs, then there is probably a reason for it.
I've been on government aid myself when I was between jobs; I can vouch for it being sufficient for people who live responsibly.
Religion is such utter shit anyway. I hope this gathers a lot of negativity.
"Aren't most poor people poor because they make poor choices?"
No. I know it's hard, but it's important to understand that we live within a complex network of forces and are not, each of us, born at the same exact level with the same exact potentials and options. Have a gander at, I don't know, India, and ask yourself if the millions of destitute people there each simply made some bad decisions in an otherwise completely open and potential-rich environment. I'm not even sure why I'm saying this; it's so stunningly obvious. Unless you're trolling, in which case, well done.
THOU SHALL NOT STEAL?
Remember that?
I don't the solution is to steal food, but I don't think anyone who has food to eat on a daily basis should take the moral high ground. There are people in real desperate situations, and sometimes you have to take drastic measures.
When he said: "I offer the advice with a heavy heart and wish society would recognise that bureaucratic ineptitude and systematic delay has created an invitation and incentive to crime for people struggling to cope."
This is not clear enough. He should of quoted quoted Ghandi, who said, "We have enough for everyone's needs, but we don't have enough for everyone's greed." It's pitiful that billions upon billions of dollars are wasted on war, entertainment, and greed while adults and children go hungry and homeless. There's no justification for it.