Drill Instructors - Not So Scary Anymore

1. Ray Strobel
   September 22nd, 2009 at 9:22 pm

   I like it. There's too much PTSD, isolation, and the feeling of having to tough out stuff that needs to be opened up and let out.

2. Geekazoid
   September 22nd, 2009 at 10:09 pm

   It might be a 'kindler and gentler' basic training for the Army support troops that tend to go to places like Fort Jackson, but rest assured they haven't loosened the standards for the combat troops, especially Fort Benning (from what I read on the various military boards).

   Maybe they might have toned down somewhat on the physical beatings and whatnot but things are still very challenging for the combat recruits.

3. Juan Quixote
   September 22nd, 2009 at 10:21 pm

   It's necessary, but not good necessarily. You end up with quantity and no quality. There was a method to the madness of boot camp. You learned to focus and ignore extreme stimuli in order to proceed with the task at hand. It toughened you up if you weren't tough and if you had an ego, it put it in its place as in combat it's cooperation that serves you best.

   Would you like to be in a combat zone with someone who can't even handle being yelled at?

   As an Iraq Veteran I dealt with entirely too many Soldiers that didn't have any business in the service. To their own detriment and their fellow troops.

4. GoffB
   September 22nd, 2009 at 10:23 pm

   The Marine Corps (cited at top of this piece) and the Army (the subject of the Slate article) are two completely different branches of the military. Like saying that Delaware is part of Texas. Just FYI.

5. Johnny Cat
   September 22nd, 2009 at 10:35 pm

   It's not just the Army doing this, GoffB. Trust me. As I stated, the Corps that trained my nephew was not like the Corps that trained those in the past.

6. striatic
   September 22nd, 2009 at 11:04 pm

   "Would you like to be in a combat zone with someone who can’t even handle being yelled at?"

   no. but you're assuming that the only way to make someone able to handle being yelled at is to yell at them.

   and what do you mean by "handle"? do you mean shut out and repress? do you mean tolerate and respond?

   there are many ways to "handle" yelling/adversity and i want to be sure that recruits are learning the right way.

   a mushy, soft army isn't desirable but i'm not sure that an overly macho, tough for toughness sake army is either. i think what they're looking for is professional and unrelenting.

7. Geekazoid
   September 22nd, 2009 at 11:11 pm

   Along with what striatic wrote, I don't understand the 'nostalgia' for what basic/boot was like decades ago, when it was "harder." I don't see how beating recruits up, assaulting them, screaming at them, etc., is supposed to make them any better as troops.

   Granted I understand the psychological benefits of 'shocking' the new recruits, breaking them down somewhat, and then building them back up as a team. But just because today's training may not be as 'abusive' as years ago doesn't mean it reflects on the quality of the training. Again, if we're talking kinder and gentler it's more referring to the soft MOS training, not the infantry and front line troops.

   If anything, the quality of the recruits that make it through any sort of training these days is more reflective of young people in general. It seems like there's more of the 'me' nintendo generation making it through, one that doesn't necessarily respect authority, period. But that's another topic entirely.

8. caveman
   September 23rd, 2009 at 12:11 am

   >> "It seems like there’s more of the ‘me’ nintendo generation making it through, one that doesn’t necessarily respect authority, period."

   Maybe more people these days understand the lunacy of not only risking your own life but having to kill other (innocent) people just for the benefit of some military-industrial agenda (or to get money for an education).

9. Zero
   September 23rd, 2009 at 1:59 am

   my apologies in advance for the upcoming wall 'o' text

   first, to caveman:
   1. the only people i killed in Iraq were people who were engaged in the process of shooting at me (and, on more than one occasion, succeeding)
   2. yes, the marine corps did pay for my education after i was wounded (minor wounds, luckily, though many others weren't so lucky) and returned home. it is not why i joined, nor was i "brainwashed" into signing up. i joined to serve my country; a country that allows you the freedom to make the statements you made without censorship (or worse) and is trying to bring that same freedom to other people. am i somehow evil for that? should we let those people suffer just because they're on the other side of planet?
   3. don't assume i'm trying to make you stop speaking your mind; i'm only attempting to open it, and (hopefully) get you thinking before condemning actions of which you know nothing. still, if you choose to keep your mind closed and continue posting astoundingly moronic remarks such as these, so be it. you have that right. which is more than billions of other people have
   4. if my joining the military and fighting people who want to kill me (and you, for that matter) due only to your nationality, and are willing to kill their own people in the process, in an attempt to bring freedom to millions of people somehow offends you, then i apologize for offending you. though i will not apologize for the choices i've made, and i would not hesitate to make the same choices again

   as for the article, well, all i can say is, "things change". it remains to be seen if this change becomes the new standard, and whether or not it is a change for the better, but the fact remains: things are changing. no method is perfect. hopefully, this will be an improvement. and, hopefully, it will changed again if it is not. in either case, only time will tell

10. Skipweasel
    September 23rd, 2009 at 2:17 am

    How do other countries do this? Are all military induction systems as harsh, and if not, do other armies have lesser quality troops as a result?

    There's been considerable press attention in the UK to troubles at a the Deepcut Barracks
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2372983.stm

    We're not alone - the French have had similar problems with their military training, too.

11. B.M.
    September 23rd, 2009 at 4:38 am

    We will never win a war again

12. zavatone
    September 23rd, 2009 at 7:52 am

    Zero, thanks for your polite and rational reply. I have one question though. Didn't we go into Iraq to find their weapons of mass destruction, not to free them from a dictator? At least that is the rationale we were told for starting the war. If the mission changed once we were there, then well, the mission changed, but as far as I recall we went there to prevent them from attacking us with their weapons of mass destruction. Freedom was only mentioned once nothing substantial was found
    IIRC.

    On another note, glad you're back and hopefully healed up and doing well. Thanks for serving.

13. Foreigner1
    September 23rd, 2009 at 8:10 am

    Skipweasel so far the Russian system by far is the harshest- There it doesn't even get into the news if recruits die in bootcamp- that's just considered occupational hazard over there.

    In the Dutch Special Forces training the instructors aim to eliminate about 80% of the fresh recruits. So that is how hard they play. If you talk to the Israeli's, you also get a picture of well... Military bliss that is sometimes just literally killing to its recruits. It still seems to be a very effective way to get soldiers ready and capable by training them the hard way to give them wwhat it takes to survive hard battle.

    But I know that all over the Western world the wihitecoats and the military instructors are looking very hard for better ways than just brutally and by force submitting recruits into toughness and resilliance. They figure that in this day and age of psychological know-how and new instructional techniques there's got to be better ways than just bashing and shouting abuse.

    As far as my own training went- Those recruits who could stand the pressures of the harsh drill instructors, 9 out of 10 also prooved to be the guys that were worth something in battle and who helped their group to survive. Those who nearly didn't make it through those batterings lots of times just failed when push came to shove. So in the end I am glad for those horrible drill instructors- I know I owe some of them my life.

14. Kay
    September 23rd, 2009 at 8:39 am

    Caveman: people with the attitude you described shouldn't be enlisting in the first place. There are other ways to get scholarship money.

15. FishBottleT
    September 23rd, 2009 at 10:45 am

    I agree Zero. Some people just need to open their minds. I think that the drill seargents being nicer just to keep people in the army is unnessisary. They should be hard to harden our troops.

16. C.M.
    September 23rd, 2009 at 1:08 pm

    Zero has recited the inane party line like a good military parrot. And he claims not to be brainwashed. (Funny, I've never heard anyone admit that they ARE) The Iraq war was about big defense contracts and oil. Iraqis were not out to kill us before we invaded, nor do they want to hop on continental airlines to shoot up our shopping malls.

    Zero is proving the old saying that war is too important a business to be left up to soldiers.

    Sad but true fact: The US military exists for empire building, right-wing version of welfare for the poor, and other non-honorable tasks, NOT "defending freedom" or other silly platitudes.

17. Melissa
    September 23rd, 2009 at 1:44 pm

    I thought the point of all the yelling and such was about team-building. If all the guys you went through training with were all taking the same abuse together and hating the drill instructor together, you bonded over it. I thought it was sort of like a heavier more serious version of fraternity pledge hazing. Everyone going through the same hazing when they were freshment strengthened the bonds of brotherhood. You went from the happy safety of your parents and teachers being sweet to you, then you left home and joined the army and the cruelty of basic training broke you from your old life and bonded you together with your new military family.

    I think the best thing would be a compromise between all out screaming verbal abuse and full-tilt coddling. I'm thinking modeling basic training after the kind of training a lot of sports coaches give would be great. You could still have the harshness and demandingness of the coach and the challenging physical tasks and building of team unity, but in a more supportive and less uneccessarily cruel atmosphere.

18. Foreigner1
    September 23rd, 2009 at 1:45 pm

    Well.... The idea that the "Free West" is fighting wars in Iraq and Afghanistan to bring Freedom and All Curing Democracy against the Villains with long beards is just a tiny bit beside reality- That is just the Public Relations-postcard picture that is projected to us taxpaying citizens so that we can sleep comfortably and kill over there when asked to.

    We don't bring freedom and peace- in fact since we went there, all hell has broken loose on a scale that is far worse than when we were not there.

    The only reason why we went there is because we have to protect our economic interests. All the other given reasons are just beautiful lies.

    The reaon any soldier out there fights like there is no tomorrow is because his or her government is his or her Boss and he or she has signed a contract to obey. And the moment the soldier goes into battle the only thing that counts is to stay alive, to keep his or her brothers alive and to shoot as many enemies as possible so they cannot harm him or her and his or her brothers as long as the Tour takes. And then there is a small bit of adrenaline and sensation to fill the rest. And that's all. Most soldiers I spoke out there totally forgot the Bigger Motives- They just fought for their lives and to keep their sanity. And any Bigger Motive only came back well after the fight.

19. Geekazoid
    September 23rd, 2009 at 2:48 pm

    I agree caveman, I think more people are aware of the jig and what's up, but I was referring to the younger generation today who make it through basic/boot. Just from reading and hearing anecdotes, seems like a lot of them don't have the proper bearing and respect. Wearing their uniforms sloppy, disrespect to senior NCO's, etc. etc.

    But I think some are still missing the point here.

    The infantry and other front line troops are not being watered down like the other jobs and training. Sure it may not be physically as hard as years ago, but I'd like to see if anyone out there would like to go to combat training to see if it's 'easy.' Fort Benning and Parris Island aren't part of the 'kindler, gentler' military.

20. smak
    September 23rd, 2009 at 4:11 pm

    @ Geek: I'm guessing you're either a Boomer or born shortly thereafter. Your smugness and attitude towards young people today reeks of either.

21. Geekazoid
    September 23rd, 2009 at 8:11 pm

    Sorry if you are offended smak but I'm telling it like it is. I don't mean to refer to ALL younger people but I am specifically referring to those in the military who seem to have less of a military bearing than years before.

    I have numerous friends in the military, and they tell me stories of guys fresh out of army basic that talk back, disrespect senior NCO's, wear their berets like pizza chefs, etc. From reading the various military message boards, this isn't uncommon. In fact I think this kind of goes along with the original subject, and relative 'coddling' of new recruits in the military today that only seems to accentuate SOME of their negative traits that basic/boot won't address.

    But rest assured the people on the front lines from what I see haven't compromised by 'softening' basic. And the cream of the crop of the U.S. military like the Army Rangers and Special Forces, their indoc and assessment programs (i.e., weeding out) is as brutal as anything else in the world, and it has nothing to do with beating or demeaning soldiers either. Those guys have pride in their uniform and unit, true espirit de corps/

22. Foreigner1
    September 24th, 2009 at 2:15 am

    Now- Stand At Ease - Geekazoid.

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