Atheist Soldier Sues Army for Discrimination

1. HollywoodBob
   July 8th, 2008 at 8:42 pm

   As if the whole "No Gays" thing wasn't blatantly obvious enough?

2. remf3
   July 8th, 2008 at 8:57 pm

   That sounds odd. I don't ever remember religious persecution in the Army. In fact, I was stationed with one guy who listed his religion as "Satanism"...it was on his dog tags and everything.

   I know that being an atheist would be bad if you were captured. Muslims viewed Christians, Jews, Buddhists, what have you as convertable and at least you could be saved (assuming they didn't kill you out right for being an American Soldier) but as an Atheist you were viewed as "beyond saving" and pretty much cut from the herd. This is hearsay, mind you, from some Special Forces friends on the ground down range.

3. Geekazoid
   July 8th, 2008 at 9:19 pm

   Sounds rather fishy to me.

4. tsiatko
   July 8th, 2008 at 9:24 pm

   That "there are no atheists in foxholes" is my favorite argument for atheism.

5. Anthony
   July 8th, 2008 at 10:01 pm

   I say all this as an atheist sergeant in the US Army.

   Does the Army embrace Christian ideals? Yes. Does the Army encourage you to become a Christian? Yes. Is the Army a Christian organization? Maybe.

   That being said, was I ever pressured into becoming a Christian or attending Christian services? No. Did people ever make jokes about my religion? Yes, just like I did about theirs. Was I ever harassed, treated poorly, given extra duty, or denied a promotion because I'm not a Christian? Never.

   I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest this guy's a tater-dick if he needs a bodyguard.

6. Anthony
   July 8th, 2008 at 10:03 pm

   Furthermore, I've known two people who listed Wicca as their religious denomination.

   The one was a girl, and everyone disliked her. She was lazy, ugly, fat, and smelled.

   The other was a guy, and everyone liked him, because he was just the nicest guy you've ever met.

   Clear proof of sexism.

7. Scooby
   July 8th, 2008 at 10:10 pm

   I for one have no doubt that this guy was harassed to the point of fearing for his life. This is basic psychology at play here; a group of fellow soldiers, who were probably staunch Christians found out he was Athiest and began their typical brainwashing and harassment. I've been victim of it before; and the harder you back up your belief system, the more you get harassed and screwed with. It all comes down to ego and status. It's really easy to be unsympathetic when you're in the majority and you have others who will back you up. Again, ego and status.

   Anthony: Just because it didn't happen to you, and you never saw or heard instance of it, doesn't mean it can't and didn't happen. And you've obviously never been victim of mental abuse. You should be thankful.

8. Anthony
   July 8th, 2008 at 10:28 pm

   Scooby, you're obviously a pussy.

9. Peeves
   July 8th, 2008 at 11:04 pm

   Completely agree Scooby. It's so easy to demand and get respect from people who aren't sharing your beliefs when you're in the majority. Since he's not suing for money I can't see how this is a bad thing..especially for an organization that is officially and publically homophobic. I know how it feels to be the one person not praying in a large group..and it sucks. I don't say anything about it because unlike this guy, I'm not in the military depending on those people to save my life if it needs saving. Of course (and I hope) this harassing group could be an exception.

10. Dave
    July 8th, 2008 at 11:09 pm

    I'd say that if anything cost this guy his military career and put his life at risk, it was more likely his big mouth than his "sudden lack of faith." The fact that he's bringing legal action against the Army tells me that he's the type that won't stop arguing even when nobody's arguing with him.

    Scooby: Just because you say it happened to you doesn’t mean that you were the innocent victim, nor does it mean it's systemic. Anthony's examples show that if you don't push your belief system, you're less likely to get harassed and screwed with. I guess it does come down to ego and status. Here's what likely happened in your situation; you didn't like being in the minority, so you pointed out the Christian guys' obvious mental inferiority (you were only trying to help.) They responded as most any group of testosterone-charged young males would be expected, and made you their target. And you pushed back, and they pushed harder. Am I close?

    In my experience with military types, most guys have a live and let live attitude, so being in the minority doesn't automatically make you the victim. You have to really want to be, and try really hard.

11. bean
    July 8th, 2008 at 11:18 pm

    The Air Force Academy is famous for being completely controlled by evangelical Christians, and the Army isn't far behind. The only thing that surprises me about any of this is that he wasn't given a dishonorable discharge for not praying to their imaginary friend.

12. WordyGrrl
    July 8th, 2008 at 11:42 pm

    When you get to a certain point in your military career, it's all about who you know and what "group" you're part of. If the person who's signature can get you promoted notices that you're badmouthing the "all-faiths" monthly prayer breakfast, your career ain't goin nowhere.

13. Johnny Cat
    July 9th, 2008 at 12:23 am

    As an ex-military, I can attest that weird guys like this get through the screening process, then proceed to act out in the field. They make a big ass deal out of their atheism, to the point of irritation. They usually get some kind of harrassment. As for his case, the UCMJ will trump it.

14. gladeye
    July 9th, 2008 at 1:09 am

    The overt proselitizing (sp?)and pressure to conform religiously has been reported on before, including, if I recall, on 60 Minutes. Kind of ironic, since these knuckleheads are supposed to be defending American principles such as religious freedom.

15. NYC
    July 9th, 2008 at 1:17 am

    LOL:

    The irony of this controversy is that some Scientists are Atheists, and they are the ones discovering the medical cures that wounded soldiers need to increase their odds of survival.

    Many who research DNA are Atheists; their discoveries and inventions have aided in finding cures for diseases that many Soldiers have gotten vaccinated for to help them remain healthy.

    How would they respond to those same life saving Physicians if they met them face to face?

16. Max Power
    July 9th, 2008 at 1:39 am

    "I say all this as an atheist sergeant in the US Army.

    Does the Army embrace Christian ideals? Yes. Does the Army encourage you to become a Christian? Yes. Is the Army a Christian organization? Maybe.

    That being said, was I ever pressured into becoming a Christian or attending Christian services? No. Did people ever make jokes about my religion? Yes, just like I did about theirs. Was I ever harassed, treated poorly, given extra duty, or denied a promotion because I’m not a Christian? Never."

    ....

    ..........

    ............

    .......

    ... so they made fun of your religion.... and you're an atheist...

    Can't we have an IQ requirement on the comment section?

17. Max Power
    July 9th, 2008 at 1:40 am

    I mean honestly.. sheeeesh. :S

18. Anthony
    July 9th, 2008 at 2:29 am

    Hey there, Max, look it up. You can read around an eighth grade level, so it shouldn't be a problem.

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion

    Upon reading a large book called a dictionary, you will find that words often have several layers of meaning. Fortunately, some dictionaries have pictures.

    Notwithstanding your narrow interpretation of religion as theism, I often like to put down random religions on forms I have to fill out such as Buddhism, Gypsy, or whatever else I felt like at the moment. I occasionally get flak about that, so, yes, they make fun of my religion.

19. Moodindigo
    July 9th, 2008 at 3:04 am

    Atheism = A philosophical stance against theism, not a religious belief.
    Gypsy = Not a religion.
    Buddhism = Tenuously described as a religion.

    NYC:
    Just for reference, over 90% of members of the National Academy of scientists descrbe themselves as Atheist or otherwise non-religious.

20. Polx
    July 9th, 2008 at 3:43 am

    If it was your kid in the forces would you sleep easier knowing that their life is unimportant to the generals at the top?

    Well that's what you get when you havce evangelical Theists in charge.

    They feel that your kid was torn limb from limb by an IED for the little baby Jebus.

    And your kids soul will be winging it's way via celestial UPS truck to the nice shiny heaven.

    So rest easy america, Sky Daddy is operating these mooks via divine inspiration.

21. Retrokatze
    July 9th, 2008 at 8:03 am

    NY Time's take on the matter

    It's not the first news article I've read about discrimination against atheists in the military, so I doubt it was Hall just being "a pussy" or "pushing" his lack of faith on other people. He's just the first one to actually do something about it, which I can only applaud him for.

    Johnny Cat said: "They make a big ass deal out of their atheism, to the point of irritation."

    So, refusing to pray or going to mass is now "making a big ass deal"? Aren't the Christians being pussies here, getting all butthurt about somebody not believing in their god?

    Moodindigo said: "Atheism = A philosophical stance against theism, not a religious belief."

    There's still such a things as religious Atheism.
    Religion encompasses more than just theism. As you said, Atheism is the rejection of theism, the disbelief in any gods or deities; it does not exclude other religious beliefs. (For example: Jainism or Humanistic Judaism)

22. CheeseDuck
    July 9th, 2008 at 9:01 am

    Woo! Holy War!

23. Elagie
    July 9th, 2008 at 9:56 am

    Let's put it this way. I'm happily atheist, though I prefer the term humanist. I never discouraged religious belief in my son or daughter -- saying that anything that brought you peace and joy (and hurt no one) was fine with me, as long as you respected my belief system.

    Perhaps it is just a coincidence then that my son, after a few weeks in boot camp requested that my mother send him a cross to wear (since almost all the guys wore one) and is planning to be baptised.

    Particularly in a military environment, one which discourages independent thought and encourages conformity, it seems likely that there is a not-to-subtle pressure to fit in.

24. just a guy
    July 9th, 2008 at 9:58 am

    As some people have said or implied, I don't think this guy's experience was due so much to his religion as it was his personality. Most groups of people (and especially guys) is going to get irritated if you keep making a big deal about something - it just gets tiresome if that all the person goes on and on about. And his sueing certainly hints at the fact that he's one of those people.

    Sure, there are vaild reasons to sue, but I suspect this guy brought on the abuse by being obnoxious about his athiesm. Being obnoxious certainly does encourage abuse.

25. Elagie
    July 9th, 2008 at 9:59 am

    er, not-too-subtle

26. iluvhatemail
    July 9th, 2008 at 10:50 am

    God seems to be a main problem for most of the world, maybe we should go to war against him/her/it.

27. Blammo
    July 9th, 2008 at 11:40 am

    I never felt any harrasement for my atheism in my 6 years, but then again the people I worked with generally to busy talking shit about our current lives to get into what happens next. It likely helped that I was in a technical field.

    The only thing that bothered me was that my dog tags read "No pref" for religion, implying that I was indifferent to the religious ceremonies to be carried out upon my death. This was wrong of course. My "pref" was none.

28. prophet
    July 9th, 2008 at 11:40 am

    Probably he hasn´t heard about "official religions" in countries.

29. Persephone
    July 9th, 2008 at 1:52 pm

    it isn't just atheists in the military who are being singled out, it's ALL non-Christian faiths.

    This blog entry has some excellent, informative links:
    http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/009562.php

30. Tim Giachetti
    July 9th, 2008 at 2:08 pm

    "God? He's the guy you pray to who doesn't answer."
    Which movie folks?

31. what?
    July 9th, 2008 at 4:17 pm

    Who wants to take a wager that Anthony is in Military PR?

32. Suzie
    July 9th, 2008 at 4:50 pm

    Why are people going into the service so naive? “Oh, they pick on me, I can’t keep my piercing, they give me crap about my religion. Ohhh my poor individuality.” Being in the service is not about your individuality. Once you go in, all that stuff your mom told you about how you are some special unique little gem counts for shit. It's not about your rights, or your ideas. It's about following orders, uniformity, and performance, so that when the crap hits the fan, you'll know how to react, and protect yourself and the guys you’re with.
    People on here are talking about the irony of medical personal being atheist...Just as you would not think a wounded soldier telling his doctor to be Christian isn't going to fly; you think a doctor would tell a wounded soldier who faces injury and death that his God is BS? Hell no. Some people need god just to feel that in the worse case scenario there is still something for them.
    I'm an atheist, but I don’t have the need to argue or push it on anyone. And when the reverse happens to me I just smile and nod. Why should I care if someone else is a devout follower of mumbo jumbo? If it makes them feel better great, if they think I'm going to hell because I don’t believe fine, and if I have to play along out of respect because it's appropriate for the situation, no big deal anyway. It's not a loss to me because I didn't believe in anything in the first place.
    And does this dude not see the irony in him feeling like a victim, when we are fighting in one of the most religiously oppressed regions in the world. Next time he wants to cry, go ask an Iraqi woman how swell her life and sense of religious freedom is… and suck it up. (BTW this is not a blanket statement that Islam is inherently oppressive, just that the practice of Islam, especially in Iraq and Iran is horribly oppressive)
    And if you have some tremendous sense of being a special individual, and aren’t willing to give that up, then don’t joint the military. I sure as hell didn’t.

33. Anthony
    July 9th, 2008 at 4:52 pm

    No, I'm an electrician.

    I didn't mean to come off pro-army, just anti-Hall.

34. Johnny Cat
    July 9th, 2008 at 6:34 pm

    And I don't mean to come off anti-atheist. I consider myself a deist, and generally don't bother other people about their beliefs. Like just-a-guy said, though, sometimes people just don't shut up about it.

    ...shutting up, now.

35. dorkafork
    July 9th, 2008 at 7:02 pm

    Most groups of people (and especially guys) is going to get irritated if you keep making a big deal about something - it just gets tiresome if that all the person goes on and on about. And his sueing certainly hints at the fact that he’s one of those people.

    Sure, there are vaild reasons to sue, but I suspect this guy brought on the abuse by being obnoxious about his athiesm.

    Does anyone know if he was wearing a short skirt as well?

36. Eo
    July 10th, 2008 at 2:31 am

    I believe it. When I was in basic training back in 1992 or 1993 if you didn't go to church on Sunday with all the other "good christians" you got punished by having to do icky work and chores as well as berated so that eventually even if you didn't believe it was better and easier for you to just go sit thru the sermon than have to deal with Drill Sergeants. I saw a lot of wrong and bad stuff in the military as a young 18 yr old female it certainly opened my eyes... my Drill sergeants (actually 2 out of 3 of the drills assigned to my platoon) tho married were throwing late night parties in their office in our barracks complete with beer and sexual activities for some of the girls in our platoon. When my squad leader spoke up about it she was punished hard in front of the rest of us to make sure it was never brought up again. We were all too afraid to say anything after that. I would never never encourage my children to join the military after my own experiences with it, there's just too much abuse and room for abuse in a myriad of ways.

37. Anthony
    July 10th, 2008 at 3:16 am

    EO, I do not believe you.

    Certainly I believe the part about the Christians getting out of chores. It was the same with me, but it was, like, an hour of mopping, then I could sneak a nap behind my locker. Maybe you had it worse.

    However, I don't believe late night sex parties were going for two reasons: there's someone in charge of quarters at night on a company and battalion level that the drill sergeants would have to get around. Plus, how much sleep do the trainees get in basic training? 6 hours, if they're lucky? Drill sergeants wake up the trainees and put them in bed, and you're telling me they were staying up to party? Please.

38. Dave
    July 10th, 2008 at 12:57 pm

    EO: Funny you brought up the extra duties for those not going to church on Sunday.. When I was in Basic Training, it seemed that it was the non-smokers that got singled out for extra duty. Several times a day, the smokers were allowed to go out and have a cigarette, but the non-smokers were stuck in the barracks, doing extra stuff. Wasn't long before I figured out that joining them & just holding an unlit smoke was a pass from an hour of busy work each day.

    By the way, I'm with Anthony in calling BS on your late night sex party story. That crap just doesn't happen in real life.

39. mohhrt
    July 11th, 2008 at 2:14 am

    Google: Atheists, the Real Ghostbusters

    Print out the image, make it into stickers and tshirts, spread the word

40. michael0411
    July 11th, 2008 at 2:25 am

    I can affirm the "non-smokers got extra duty" assertion. In addition to the extra barracks work, when we were out on long marches, the Drill Sergeants would call for a stop, and shout "Smoke 'em if you got 'em, everyone else, POLICE CALL!" Police call generally meant patrolling the immediate area picking up small articles of trash so we didn't leave anything behind for "the enemy" to find -- said trash consisting mostly of old cigarette butts.

    I'll also affirm that as an atheist, I got extra duty while others were in church, was occasionally harassed, and a few times, felt extremely pressured by others higher in the chain of command to convert to some form of evangelical christianity. Never thought to sue over it, though.

    Finally, in my basic, they had several drill instructors for our company, and we only occasionally had the one who did final inspection and lights out wake us in the morning. Most of the time they rotated schedules. And they did, in fact, bring a cooler of beer to their office more than once, in large part, I think, to tease us.

41. Homer Jay Simpson
    July 11th, 2008 at 9:13 am

    "YOU BOYS KNOW WHAT DAY IT IS? ITS CHRISTMAS!
    HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU,
    HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU,
    HAPPY BIRTHDAY DEAR JESUS
    HOW OLD ARE YOU?"- full metal jacket

42. Eo
    July 14th, 2008 at 2:24 am

    You got to smoke in basic?! They never let us smoke once we got to AIT we could smoke but not in basic.

    Anthony I don't care if you believe me or not I was there I know what happened. And since your name is Anthony and you're a guy I am assuming we weren't in the same platoon or company and I suspect not the same year either so I bet your experience was different than mine. We never had anyone but our Drills or Fireguard in our bay at night looking over us and our Drills office as well as a storage/TV room was part of our bay. I don't think they had to wake girls up I am sure some of them were quite willing to go, still doesn't make it right does it.

43. Jason
    July 14th, 2008 at 9:18 am

    So where's the evidence that Hall was "pushing" his atheism on anyone else? This story has been kicking around for the better part of a week now. Where are those soldiers to stand up and give the other side of the story? Or the superior officers to attest to the fact that the kid was a trouble-maker? Or a statement by the military itself actually saying he got discharged because he was a trouble-maker?

    I saw this kid in a video, and he seems wiser than his years, thoughtful, and sensitive. If he were just another a** hole, he'd have tell-tale signs of it, as well as suing for money, which he isn't.

44. Raby
    July 18th, 2008 at 6:56 pm

    I was in the Navy, and I thought that the military was Christian biased. I was raised Hindu, thus I've never ate beef or pork. I was out at sea on the USS Kennedy (CV-67), and the Culinary Specialists tend to use a tong to serve beef/pork, then use the same tong to serve chicken or other meats that I would eat. I complained about this, and about the days when there was no choice in foods because everything that they served was either beef or pork, but they did nothing. I couldn't eat the salad because they put bacon bits in it. I spoke with the Command Master Chief, Master Chief Davis, and he acted as if he was going to do something about it, but it was never addressed. And when I complained about the food to the cooks, they didn't care. Everyone else was Christian. I went days without food and had trouble sleeping because of hunger and my determination to not eat beef or pork.

    At night out at sea, the ship's pastor always said a prayer over the ship's intercom (1MC) that seems to be Christian and military biased.

    In Navy boot camp, my recruit division commanders used to talk about their belief in god. It was very upsetting to me because I felt like it was a slap in the face, it was as if they were calling me stupid but I couldn't say anything back to them because I would have got punished.

    Even though the military states that we had freedom of religion, sometimes while eating at the galley on Naval Air Stations, military pastors would come around and start talking to us about their imaginary god.

    Though I was raised Hindu, but I've always been an Atheist, and I still don't eat beef or pork because of personal preference.

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