Is the belief in (or fear of, depending on your point of view) God necessary to have a "good" society? What would a nation of atheists look like? Would a godless country lead to lawlessness and immorality?
We actually don't have to wonder - there is a place where the great majority of people are not only not religious - they're can't even be bothered about the questions of faith, God, and life's meaning.
Sociologist Phil Zuckerman spent a year in Denmark and Sweden, the least religious countries in the world and perhaps even in history, and interviewed people about their religious beliefs (technically, the absence of such beliefs). He published his findings last year (Oct 2008) in his book Society without God: What the Least Religious Nations Can Tell Us About Contentment.
TYWKIWDBI has some thought-provoking excerpts from the book:
Here's the premise of [Zuckerman's] book:
“First of all, I argue that society without God is not only possible, but can be quite civil and pleasant. This admittedly polemical aspect of my book is aimed primarily at countering the claims of certain outspoken, conservative Christians who regularly argue that a society without God would be hell on earth: rampant with immorality, full of evil, and teeming with depravity. Well, it isn’t. Denmark and Sweden are remarkably strong, safe, healthy, moral, and prosperous societies…”
He's careful not to extol the absence of religious belief as preferable for a society, while arguing strongly that when religious belief (or dogma) is absent, society can crank along just fine. Herewith some excerpts and some of my notes from the book -
p. 6 - “…their overall rates of violent crime – such as murder, aggravated assault, and rape – are among the lowest on earth. Yet the majority of Danes and Swedes do not believe that God is “up there,” keeping diligent tabs on their behavior… In fact, most Danes and Swedes don’t even believe in the very notion of “sin.” Almost nobody in Denmark and Sweden believes that the Bible is divine in origin. And the rate of weekly church attendance in these Nordic nations is the lowest on earth…” [...]
p. 10 – "When they say they are “Christian” they are just referring to a cultural heritage and history. When asked what it means to be Christian, they said 'being kind to others, taking care of the poor and sick, and being a good and moral person.' They almost never mentioned God, Jesus, or the Bible in their explanation of Christian identity. When I specifically asked these Nordic Christians if they believed that Jesus was the Son of God or the Messiah, they nearly always said no – usually without hesitation. Did they believe that Jesus was born of a virgin or that he rose from the grave? Such queries were usually met with genuine laughter – as through the mere asking was rather silly.”
I haven't read it, but will definitely put this fascinating book on the short list of must-reads this year: Link
Here's a fascinating interview with Phil Zuckerman about, amongs other things, the difference of being a religious Christian in America and a cultural Christian in Denmark and the rise of Islam because of the immigration from Africa:
Japan is an even better example. Almost no attachment with religion other than from a cultural perspective, yet one of the lowest crime rates in the world.
The conclusion is clear, not only is life in a Godless world possible, but it may be preferable.
I'm proud to be an atheist. The values I was raised with and my ultimate belief in our shared responsibility to make life as easy and peaceful for one another as possible means I have no desire to harm another. There is no need to bow to the wishes of another being in this.
For those of faith, if their god were proven absent or they believed it's subjective view of 'good' involved doing harm to another, they would be capable of astonishing atrocities.
No good without a god? I shudder to think if that were true.
I agree that the weak need a figure to follow. But if your inner beast is telling you to do bad things and you need a voice to tell you to do other, then you need help and not a god.
For example, Adolf Hitler was a Christian, yet it didn't stop him from doing some rather terrible things.
Treat others as you would like to be treated. Respect individuals. Who needs religion to figure that out?
I might also point out that there's little difference between a religious criminal and an atheist criminal - they've both behaved badly and mostly they both know it.
here in scandinavia we (try) to do the right thing simply because it's the right thing, not out of fear.
i know which one of those two i'd leave my kid with.
so it must be another driving factor.
even the fear of shame is probably a bigger drive than the fear of the law.
"Of course it would!"
Now, wait, I've heard that before...who said that? Do unto others...? Hmmm...
And so why should I Do unto others? What if others get in my way? What if I believe that I'm worth more?
Moral? What's moral for you may not be moral for me. Values? Who's values? Why should I care about other people? Because it's good? What's "good"? Says who? And why? Who cares?
Values are moveable and relative. Virtues are not. There's a difference.
And before anyone starts with Hitler being "godless" let me remind you that German soldiers who fought for Nazi Germany wore the motto "God With Us" on their belt buckles.
Visit Detroit, Washington D.C., Memphis or Atlanta and tell me that racial makeup does not have a direct impact on crime. Now look at Fargo, N.D., or Billings, Mt., where there are far fewer blacks and Hispanics, the rate of violent crime is much much lower. Don't point at the size of the populations since the stats are based on per capita in all instances.
Racial make-up plays a huge huge roll in crime statistics and we all know it but we keep dancing around it. Let's throw in a few million blacks and hispanics into these countries and watch the people flock to the churches in droves on the heels of a huge uptick in crime. With their faith shaken by the sheer violence they witness day in and day out on the local television news they too will seek out solace and understanding via the church.
The biggest problem that I saw was the concept of temporal spiritual authority -- that God gave special authority to certain people to "shepherd" other people. Defiance to the shepherd is defiance to God. An unwillingness to be exploited by the earthly representatives of God leads to damnation. This principle is more overt in obvious cults, but still a quiet voice present in more bland and pedestrian forms of Christianity.
Does religion make someone better or worse? Overall, I'd say that it's a wash. Some better, some worse.
Hmmm...leave my little girl with my atheist friends or...this lady:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Yates
No thanks.
I myself am agnostic and fervently believe in the ability to be moral without a God-monitor, but I find the dump-on-Christianity screeds irritating and disingenuous. "Hitler was a Christian!" That makes as much sense as me defending my meat-eating by screaming "Hitler was a vegetarian!" Japanese may be among the most peace-loving of folk...but you wouldn't have thought so in Nanking in December 1937. Etc.
Horrible things have been done in the name of one religion or the other; horrible things have been done in the name of a lot of other things than religion. Guess what, we're humans, and really really good at justifying our bad behavior to ourselves.
I've never understood religion and how people can follow something so blindly.
There have been many tyrants throughout history, and in the present day, that wave the banner of religion to support their own selfish causes. The very second these people make their God given choice to extort a religion is at the same point at which they are no longer a true representative of God, but rather a representative of only themselves.
I believe in God, in his example, and in the laws he set forth for mankind to follow. I do not follow his laws because I'm afraid of going to Hell. I try to follow them because doing so brings me closer to Him and because they strengthen the people around me and make the world a happier place. This makes me feel like a more worthwhile person. Those "atheists" who contribute to society by giving to the poor or helping school children, or by doing any kind of selfless charitable work are also, perhaps unknowingly, following God's laws by doing such work. I believe they do it because they want to contribute to their fellow human beings and that makes them feel worthwhile. Religious people should also do so for the same reason and not because they fear God's wrath. This is the same example Jesus Christ set when he was on the earth.
- I'm amazed that someone these days thinks it important and interesting to think and write about -a- society without -a- God.I live in a country (The Netherlands) where I thought that religion might be important and mostly respected, but where religion is not an issue when it comes to arguments and thinking about setting rules and regulations- Science and rationality has that place- Religion only comes after that. Sure we have our political parties that work from a religious bases, but they are just one part of the whole rainbow of parties that have a say in our politics.
- The Communistic system in both the USSR and China were perhaps a-religious, but they function(ed) just like if there was/is a religion governing the whole system. So the net-result is just the same, but now the Deity is called Marx, Lenin, Uncle Mao, Castro or Kim Jong-il instead of God or Allah.
I think the argument of race as a cause of criminality like Walter brings up is somewhat off-point- The reason why those racial divides in criminality show up is mainly because those lines go together with education -or rather: the lack of good education.
In the U.S. it is commonly known that the moment education and thereby the means to prosper in jobs and private enterprice on the whole in a group goes up- criminality on the whole in that group goes down just as fast. And that goes for the whole world. And that is why you'll see low criminality-rates in countries like Denmark and so on- That has less to do with their level of religiosity.
In our Human Past, religion has had both a powering and a heavy braking effect on the development of human groups- It was the Catholic Church that started to develop lots of area's at the beginning of our modern history long after the Romans had been pushed away. They did a marvellous job just as long as development didn't threaten their power.
Religion was also one of the most powerful forces on our human planet to keep back certain groups in society and to halt scientific development. Just look at Galileo and others like him Just look at given reasons for -to mention just a few- Apartheit in South-Africa and in the U.S.A, the Kaste-system in India or the way the Jews were treated in Europe, the suppression of women and development in general in some (not all!!!) Islamic counties. Lots if not most reasons were based on the religion of the master-group.
Perhaps it is fair to state that religion as a whole is one of the most mis-used systems to give certain people reasons to -mis-use the power they have.
...Perhaps it is fair to state that commerce as a whole is one of the main driving forces in development and even in giving humans reasons to act what we nowadays call "Civilised"- It just is not profitable to have too much criminality and wars. It is however profitable to educate and to spread prosperity.
:lol: ....Djeeesus in the end I nearly started to sound like a Grand-Nagus of the Ferengy........ ;-)
But it does fit to countries like Denmark and even the U.S. at certain times in its development and history.
Define "God."
There are many more definitions of "God" than just the stereotypical Judeo-Christian version.
Tat Tvam Asi.
Also, The Invention of Lying (the new Ricky Gervais) movie deals alot with religion and it's necessity (or lack of) in a society)
DELUSIONAL! Anyone that is "Good" only because of a fear of God and His Hell or the dangling carrot of Heaven should turn themselves in for evaluation immediately! You are evil and potentially dangerous to those around you and society! You have no inner conscience of your own and are merely a sociopath on the God Drug and only that medicated state is keeping you under control. You should be removed as a danger to society!
Without God I KNOW I would never do any of those things ( I know because I am almost sixty and haven't had or succumbed to those "temptations") but YOU however admit that you are an evil monster-in-waiting white-knuckling it through life on the verge of murder, rape, cheating and stealing!
Forget the fact that the article (and I assume the book) which either went over your head or directly through it, clearly disproves everything you said, think and believe. If you could actually read and understand it instead of just having it ricocheti off of your delusional protective "Jesus Bubble" you might actually learn something rather than an experienced knee-jerk event being the only thing you got out of it!
Do good -> go to heaven
Do evil -> go to hell
Therefore, it's by convenience and fear how believers are taught morals. It doesn't strike me as the most solid foundation for a set of principles. If the believer loses his faith somehow, there would be no strictly moral reason to stop him from doing evil. Just as it happens whenever the social structures collapse, and fear of the law becomes less relevant, people whose behaviour was based on that fear will easily turn to immoral behaviour (Katrina, anyone?).
A moral system not based upon fear of anything, but based upon a true, reasonable concept of what's "good" and why it's convenient to behave like that, on the other hand, is less likely to fail, since it's not something you have to impose to an infant so that his young mind won't resist, but something that it takes a grown mind to understand.
Or, to put it another way, does anyone believe it was God that brought us morals, not the other way around?
Are these refugee and immigrant populations turning into the equivalent of Morlocks for the ethnic Swede Eloi? To mix metaphors, is Sweden a Valhalla to them as well?
I do think that religions have been powerful focuses for both positive and negative forces throughout human history. But they've basically served as secondary "nations", and as rallying points for political movements. Without religion, people would have simply found other reasons either to kill each other, or to band together to support each other and better themselves.
And before you hold up Japan as a good example for the rest of the world, consider its rampant racism and xenophobia, and its high suicide rate.
(I don't know enough about Swedish or Danish culture to comment on them, though.)
It seems either side, athiests or christian, engage in far too much research to support their way of looking at things-we need more individuals on either side, who are willing to suspend personal opinion or belief, willing to place the way of looking at things, on the backburner, and engage in actual research. I suspect, this is only personal, unresearched opinion, that the debate itself, you know the one, has been reduced from actually looking into various possibilities, and into mud-flinging and crappy research based on entrenched positions.
Personally, I think religion is kinda like an addition to your lifestyle. For example, I don't feel comfortable wearing anything skimpy, and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't even if religion didn't tell me to be modest. By covering myself, I don't have to worry about what people think of my looks -- in fact, I'm pretty much forcing them to get to know me before they judge me. Religion guides me to little solutions like that.
As for whether a godless society can be good:
I don't really agree with that. My sister's an atheist, and she came home drunk last Saturday night (she's not old enough to legally drink). Here's someone I've known my entire life who has dismissed religion, and look where she ended up.
"think about the least Godly person you know.. and then ask yourself, would you leave your children in there (sic) care if an emergency etc happened…. hmmm lol"
Now think of the "Godliest" people you know Priests & Pastors, Youth Pastors, Bishops & Cardinals and the Pope , would I leave MY children in their care... ANYTIME? Not On Your Life!
You'd have to have your head examined! Don't forget, the current Pope is the one whose "Superior Moral Compass" directed him to cover up all the Child Rape cases starting way back in 1962.
Sorry Seth, just more baseless, insulting spewing born of ignorance on your part that I was "Inspired" to point out!
I can't argue every ridiculous statement and I think you can easily tell the ones I agree with
Walter you are a Racist. Evidently a Christian so understandable. WHY? What is the cause of what you describe? Maybe you need to read a book other than the Bible since your God and religion has failed to install in you a sense of empathy. http://www.slaverybyanothername.com/ There are reasons for what you describe
RE Jeremy - "“yawn” I haven’t read the book yet,"
Maybe you should? And perhaps some history books and newspapers as well to better inform yourself of the many, many times throughout history, then & now that those with a supposed "Superior Moral Foundation" a "Superior Moral Compass" have fallen FAR short of their claimed superiority and there is plenty of evidence to show that that goes for the corrupt, self-interested, self-serving institution as well as individuals. For example - Thanks to the Highly Moral, Infallible Pope > http://tiny.cc/jM7o2
I know, "The Inquisitions and Witch Trials weren't as bad as they say" And the news items every single day of sex abuse and other criminal activity by clergy, they are just thousands of bad apples. Sure, anything to sooth your cognitive dissonance.
Truth is "People Of God" are no more moral than anybody else and that's a fact backed up by statistics! http://www.freethoughtflorida.com/openletter.html That old tired line needs to be scratched off the resume of religion once and for all. And why do you fight so hard to keep that spurious claim alive? Because after that, you have nothing!
Just give her a second chance before throwing any rocks.
A couple reasons I hate my sister:
-At least once a day she and my mom end up in a massive argument over something stupid like not being allowed to drive to Starbucks before school.
-She talks to me (on average) once a day -- that would be when I make something for dinner and she requests something for herself.
-EVERYONE I know thinks she is this awesome, cheerful girl destined for great things, and constantly compare me to her. While she's the social butterfly, I keep to myself in my own reserved way. People expect me to be just like her, and then ask why I'm so different from her. If you're talking to me, why does my sister matter? Why do you need to know how she is? How about you go ask her yourself instead of treating me like messenger girl?
I guess I shouldn't blame her atheism when this society is based on just about everything non-Islamic. Maybe she left religion because ours would have made her an outcast. I don't really care for friends, while her life is centered around them. So, all in all, maybe I should accept her for who she is. But people don't accept me for being me. What happened to the whole "be yourself" thing? Can you see why I'm unwilling to accept this?
I do believe in god but I don’t believe in the "god" the religions talk about.
It's not guns either: more Canadians own guns, proportionately, than Americans, yet there is little gun violence in Canada. Go figure.
Maybe it's the free taxpayer-funded health care system. Among other things, it helps to tell the poor that there is some fairness in society, that the rich are contributing to the people's overall well-being.
Discontent and violence in the USA is mostly fueled by poor people's resentment and desperation. They know that they will never get to share in the "American Dream" (which in itself is about as real as gods in the heavens, but that's another matter).
Alejo
The premise, as stated in the first quoted paragraph, is simply that a society can be "good" without religion, contrary to what many Christians insist. The aforementioned countries are cited as examples.
"Those “atheists” who contribute to society by giving to the poor or helping school children, or by doing any kind of selfless charitable work are also, perhaps unknowingly, following God’s laws by doing such work"
See, it's shit like this that people can't stand. It almost doesn't matter what the subject matter is, it's the condescending arrogance behind it. The only reason it matters in this case is that you have absolutely no proof of a god's existence, let alone the one you happen to prefer.
There's nothing wrong with believing what you want to believe, but there is something wrong with assuming that everyone else does or should believe exactly what you do.
You can be religious and still act immoral (just look at fundamentalists in any religion). And you can be non-religious and still act from strong and clear moral guidelines.
However it came about, be it God, be it evolution, we can all agree that life is precious and should be protected. From that knowledge stems true morals that reside inside every person regardless of religion or lack thereof. Like instincts and senses, morals are inherent to us. We know right and wrong because we feel the weight of it Someone who does evil/bad/wrong intentionally... is someone who is out of balance. There is something wrong with that person... not that they lack some deity in their life who would otherwise be guiding them.
So many lives perish by the minute, so many generations have made great sacrifices to make our journey just a little smoother. I just have to look around and know that if we humans, living here on this floating rock, ever hope to be anything more than simply alive... then we still have to learn and DO much more. Someday we could achieve things we never thought remotely possible if we just keep trying.
In truth, I'm possibly more Agnostic than Atheist. That doesn't mean I believe in a "heaven" or an After life... When I die, should these things present themselves, I'll happily believe they exist (and be much relieved at the same time to have been proven wrong.) However, in my present condition of being alive, Heaven can't be proven and I require more evidence than a book written by people who were "inspired".
What can be proven is that here and now we are living the life we have. Lofty ideas of eternal life aside, as far as we can verify with science, this is the only chance we get. This is it. We should make that life something we can be proud of and on our deathbeds be unashamed of. The reward shouldn't be heaven or hell, but satisfaction in that it was a life that was worthy of all hardships that came before us to make our journey a little easier and we in turn do no less for those who come after.
With this being said, people who value these things tend not to buy into prescribed beliefs and the hive mentality. Because of this it seems like a Godless nation is a better one, but I think that it's a society that values critical thinking, education and science... and it's hard for a god to exist when you're a rationalist (sorry if that sounds abrasive!).
I cant speak for all atheists, but I’m pretty sure they would agree there is never a justifiable reason, outside of self defense, to kill another human being. As far as atheists having a materialist philosophy, visit the Vatican, stuffed with valuable works of art, or the gold clad Buddhist temples, the Hindu temples with their walls studded in precious gems and tell me they are not materialistic. If it were only the small number of atheists that were materialistic, the world would be a very different place.
Having answered your question, perhaps you can now answer mine. Is there anything that an atheist would do that a religious person would never do?
This is not an anti-immigrant rant, just pointing out an aspect to these comparisons. Many Heterogeneous societies are not immigrant cultures anymore - many of the mixed cultures have been there for a long time. I suspect this just adds a level of complexity to a society that makes certain frictions and situations harder to avoid.
Also, rule of law is a very big factor. I live in Dubai, which has an 80% foreigner population. But there is little crime here (of the petty variety, at least), largely thanks to a pretty draconian justice system.
God is irrelevant in this argument (and anyone applying the No God = Rape argument is woefully naive about how societies function). What we should look at are the cultural values themselves and these are much more deep-seated than any deity. We should also consider population density and simple numbers. Places like India (very religious) and China (mixed to non-religious, depending on whether you poll citizen or state) don't have low crime rates partially thanks to such factors.
I feat this is becoming a bad trend amongst atheists: we are so eager to make our point and prove theists wrong (given we've had to stay in the closet for such a long time) that we are grasping at any straw to win people over. Richard Dawkins' God Delusion is full of this flawed 'all or nothing' logic. The reality of God's place in the world is somewhere very inbetween.
You can't simply remove an ancient concept (deity worship has been a part of us for at least 50,000 years) with logic and using shallow, bias logic is only making things worse. Live by example! Let others know you are an atheist and let them judge you accordingly. The people worth saving will see you are still a good person. The people who don't, well, they will never see reason no matter how good your position is.
To me, God is truth, wisdom and love. I don't really even need to call it God. Maybe I should stop, because it seems to give people the wrong idea.
"and it's hard for a god to exist when you're a rationalist" What about the question "can something come from nothing?" wouldn't a rationalist say no? Simple law of non-contradiction.
How is it that all these people come up with ethics on their own? Atheists, who do not fear the authority of God, come up with these ideas. And how did Religions all over the world, without any interaction, come up with similar ideas? There seems to be something above us here. What is that truth that seems to govern all those who take the time to dig it out of their minds?
The rejection of the idea of God sitting on a cloud deciding who gets eternal bliss and who gets eternal damnation is a good thing. Inspiring someone to find a truth within themselves is the only real way they'll come up with ethical conclusions. Fear of authority doesn't allow someone understand why they shouldn't do something.
The Bible seems tries to inspire as much or more than it does scare, but fear is the easiest thing for people to understand so they jump immediately to it.
I think a lot of Atheists are on the right track. They're thinking, and that's where God is. I think people need new conceptions of what God is! There is an eternal unchanging law which governs the universe. Science is our way of figuring out what those laws are through observations of things that exist as bodies in the world.
So a lot people won't reject thinking and trying to come to the best conclusion they can on a matter. But without any sort of education in these matters, (as church has attempted to provide, but people not really thinking has skewed this whole purpose) some people will think "there is no God" and they will become their own God in a "what gives me the most instant satisfaction?" kind of way. (Not that people who are Christian or whatever don't do this by misunderstanding or skewing religion right now) They'll eat as much as they want, try to become as powerful or "important" as they can, try to be the most "this" or the most "that".
I think that church was a way of attempting to give these ideas which can be gotten from inside yourself to the general masses. Now that it's dwindling, I think that (some) people who might otherwise have been inspired to be good by church may never find that inspiration anywhere else.
I see the effects of "Godlessness" in North American society in movies, television, music and even childrens toys. Art is the most accurate reflection of a society after all.
Barbies. People ragged on Barbies for giving women an unrealistic body image. Sure, valid argument. But at least (up until pretty recently) they wore relatively modest clothing and not too much make up. (although for the time there were pretty bad I guess.) But look at what we have now. Bratz dolls. I would burn them all were it possible. Rich, spoiled, face painted scantily clad bitches. Just think about kids - this really does affect them. In the 80's, kids in schools dressed modestly, although some were for sure pushing the limits of their times. But look at the tweens sporting Paris Hilton gear? That never would have happened in any time except now, when the idea of God is being rejected. This is a massive and recent change.
A purely Capitalist society is quite Godless.North American society, for the most part, is currently Godless.
To conclude, I think a "Godless" society can be good. I also think a good society can't possibly be Godless. A good society cannot exist unless they contemplate the eternal unchanging rationale of the universe and are guided by wisdom and truth and not their own personal desires. Lots of Atheists do this! They don't even know they're contemplating what religious philosophers have been calling God for centuries!
That's all I'll say for now. Please read this post with charity.