Thanks for the info, clears up the questions I had.

Do you have jujitsu moves or whatever? Probably not, but that isn’t the point. Do you do any good? By not leaving someone alone in a moment like that you’ll do more good in one act than most people get to do in a lifetime. You don’t look opportunities like that in the mouth first.

If we want to live in a free society we have to accept the responsibilities of that freedom.

When an existential threat to your nation arises, you fight it. When a neighbor is in a struggle for her life, you defend it. And on and on. That is a big part of what it means to have integrity. Without that integrity we can’t be free, and we don’t really deserve the freedom happenstance has gifted us.

And still, some say pepper spray is legal but mace is not.

1. It is illegal to carry mace in New York City.
2. Yes, many train stations are actually pretty empty around 2 a.m. Even Time Square.
3. Here’s a funny thing I learned, leaving my job, which is in Time Square–OH, AT 2 a.m. I am a young woman. The train station is often pretty empty–and it’s one of the busiest stations in the city. Many retail stores actually close at midnight and employees leave sometime after. Many employees clean up the store. This means it’s not so crazy for a woman working part time to be on a train at 2 a.m.

That’s only one of the many reasons a woman would be on a train that late in New York City. It’s neither shocking nor surprising.

Just thought some of you should know.

People are afraid of being attacked themselves if they help, sued for helping, sued for not helping, and more. It was great that both workers called police, but it would have been even better if the two workers could muster up the courage, grab a tool, and chase off the rapist together (if they knew of the other person’s presence).

Me, I would have gone after the guy. Even if it was just me, the person being raped would be an ally and might help for fear of their life. Even if not, I couldn’t live with myself after knowing what happened to Kitty.

But any person should do more than just stand by. It’s easy to say “I was just doing my job” – that’s what they said at the concentration camp in WW2.

There is another ‘law’ that these people should be subject to and that is morality. Society will punish these people if it feels that what they have done is wrong, or at least, it should be.
The power of society’s ruling can be much stronger in affecting people’s decisions and morals than being held responsible by a legal system.
And this is as it should be.
An event like this strengthens our morality.
People come together on forum to discuss the topic, to pass judgment and berate the guilty.

As far as answering the question above, I do not believe I have enough information from this article to decide that.
If the attacker had a gun and you risk being shot, would all the cowboys in the room still run 100 feet towards the attacker giving him ample chance to shoot you?
Maybe that’s another question. How far does your personal moral duty extend?

On your second thought, I totally agree and I hadn’t really thought much about the idea of authority as a psychological get-out-of-thinking free card. It’s a really strong point, related but very different from the psychological process of assuming/pretending that “someone else” will call the cops/intervene. All these little mental tricks that allow us to keep walking, slightly sleepy, and hush the struggling little part that would engage critical moments with the awareness and authentic reaction they deserve.

However… I am not one who has much faith at all, and what little I have certainly is not placed within the notion that the law, by virtue of being law, is “right”. The workers may have been protecting themselves, but they failed to protect another human being and thus failed as human beings themselves.

I have a slightly different view from today’s seemingly meek individuals. If I see any sort of undefined commotion that I cannot identify as playful, violent, or friendly, I immediately make my presence known and step into the confrontation. Of course, I also think that my life is best served to others than to myself.

I am sure I do not have all of the facts, and I might view these workers differently in a detailed discussion of the matter, but I will most likely find some annoyance in the lack of bravery and bravado.

That all said, can we have more posts of kittens and things now. I come here to escape the nasty stuff in the world.

Oh, but if they catch the guy, let us know.

this is after all NYC and a transit employees see many many things. for all we know, (not knowing what was called in) they could have seen it as an altercation between two drunks or a couple or any any number of things.

the reaction required or suggested varies significantly knowing, if the situation was “grey” or “black” or “white” meaning if they knew what was going on.

the clear assumption is that regardless of what happened it didn’t happen right infront of the station agent’s office space right? without knowing the facts, it’s impossible to predict if the situation was cowardice, or reasonable.

those who would see the situation as a place to interject regardless of whether or not it was altercation between 2 people who know each other, or truly a situation where one person is in danger. Must realize that in NYC you don’t look, you don’t ask questions, you keep to yourself. hence knowing where these employees are residents of and are working and what they see day to day, they followed standard procedure.

where they will probably never forget this situation and always ask more questions is to realize, that though normally it may not be anything so harmful, there are times where it is truly as bad as your imagination could make it.

Whether or not those guys are cowards, I think it’s wrong to sue them and the MTA. What if the judge hadn’t thrown it out? These guys and the MTA owe this woman money cause someone else raped her? Might as well sue the entire city for letting rapists walk the street at all.

To bad the woman got raped, I don’t think you should get paid for that though.

This is why carrying a gun and having training for self-defense is a good thing, since the rapist would have a coffin or hospital stay. The cops will arrive generally too late to help your sorry ass, since they are few compared to the rest of the world.

Based solely on the scant info from the article, remember…If you can call the witnesses cowards for not intervening, how should you react to someone on their hands and knees licking your feet? Seems like a singularly vulnerable position to me…

In this case, the rules are the “higher authority” that absolved the two subway workers, and more importantly – the MTA, from any direct responsibility for this woman, or anyone else for that matter. The rules also the signal to criminals that they can do as they please, when they please, and where they please, without immediate interference.

There’s something drastically wrong when the rules are designed to value job security over another person’s life. But so long as “the rules” tell us it’s okay to “dial it in”, we’re all “safe”.

If for nothing else, consider the key almost every one of clings to in our day-to-day life and ask yourself why it is that we all lock ourselves in at night. What’s worse, being jailed by others, or jailing ourselves?

What’s not worth the energy is all the vitriol and anger that always has, and always will lead nowhere. The only person who has the right to be angry in all this is the woman who was a) raped, and b) raped, both actively and passively, by these prime specimens of what is becoming more and more a society of impotent humanity.

What is worth the energy is fumigating that “risky area” of its criminal intent and restoring it as public space for law-abiding men, women, children, and yes, even transit workers. It’s utterly absurd that people should fear their place of work to this degree, and it’s absurd that the employees themselves see nothing so wrong with it that a) a few rules won’t fix, and b) don’t apply in kind when they might themselves similar dire straits.

Rules help us ignore the roaches ultimately at our own expense – be it on a subway platform, or in a forum. But more immediately, it helps us ignore the roaches…at the rape victim’s expense.

Announcement: there are lots of angles to this situation, and only one of them involves some bizarro fantasy scenario of trying a roundhouse on a rapey devil and being slaughtered unceremoniously on the subway platform, thereby leaving behind a gaggle of weeping progeny. Get a grip.

@iRonnie: Your thoughtful comments notwithstanding, please don’t dignify the pathetic trollery by granting it your energy. To acknowledge those opinions is to treat them as even marginally worthy of discourse, which they are not.

Also, by saying it’s the woman’s fault because she was “alone in a risky area”, we all acquiesce our rights to public spaces to the criminals. Crime is territorial. Law-abiding citizens, men, women, and children should have the right to feel safe in any public space at any hour. But how much we value that right depends on how much we’re prepared to defend it.

Take a good look around the world you live in and think on how much of what should be safe, communal spaces are “owned” by criminal intent. That woman has more right to that “risky area” than the rapist, by far. And in these economic times, who’s to say she’s not someone holding down two jobs to make ends meet, or feed a family?

Next time you see transit workers in danger, remember the rules. Call it in, and call it a day.

I mean, I hope that they are decent enough people that they will have to live with guilt for not having done more, but truth be told, they didn’t do anything wrong. Would you risk your life to save someone if you had kids at home, or a family to feed?

They are subway employees. They are not cops, or firefighters, or trained assassins or karate masters. They called who they had to call, and if the police had arrived sooner, they probably would be heroes.

Its sad, though, that the rape victim couldn’t possibly have had a firearm with her. Even if there was a chance she might have had a 38 special in her purse, a rapist might well have been deterred. The lawmakers, the police, the anti-gun lobbyists and the courts conspired to make her a statistic…. now they can go be “tough on crime” some more.

I had the advantage of surprising the assailant, and I was fortunately in better shape than he was. I was lucky enough to succeed and leave with only a few scrapes and bruises. In retrospect, what I did was foolish — he could have had a gun or there could have been others.

All the same, I know that I felt morally obligated as a human being to stop something so reprehensible. I felt personally obligated, as a man whose fiance has been a victim. Call it what you will, but I would never be able to look myself in the mirror if I’d acted otherwise.

As for those railway employees, they may not have had the “luck” I had. We don’t know how fit they were relative to the assailant. The assailant might have been armed. They certainly would’ve lost their jobs, and possibly even their lives. They may have families to support. There was no way for them to win.

All the same… I can’t think of a job that I wouldn’t give up in a heartbeat to stop such a monstrous crime.

I have been in a situation similar to the dilemma faced by the booth operators. While it was nothing as horrific as rape – it was two students having a knockdown drag out, teeth flying fight. I ran and broke up the fight, got punched in the process and held them apart, while they were still swinging, until school authorities showed up.
I broke protocol. I was admonished for my actions. I was threatened to be put on temporary leave.
According to the rules, I was supposed to sit there and watch the fight.
But the “I cant sit here and let this happen” made me break it up.
I was told that I could be liable for any injuries to the students I pulled apart.
I countered with “I could have been asked by a court “why did you just sit there and do nothing?”

Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
People are quick to criticize over a situation that they have not experience themselves.

I side with the booth people. What if the rapist had a knife/gun? When the attendant moves in, the rapist kills the victim, flees, and the attendant is widely cricized and sued by the victims family for taking the law into his own hands instead of waiting for trained policeman.

Im just saying, it always, always goes both ways.

I think the two untrained railway workers trying to apprehend the rapist could have inflamed the situation, and there could have been three murders. Would you trust a dude who blatantly rapes a woman in a trains station to not be carrying a gun?

That’s not to say those two guys won’t feel bad about what happened. I would. But who would feed my family if I got shot trying to do someone else’s dangerous job that I’m untrained for?

But I figured, not everyone has a lionheart.

Indeed it is psychologically ‘normal’ for people to always say, oh, I would have done more, etc. etc. The reason is, they are in effect trying to force out the very thought that they too might not have acted like some action hero. They want to reassure themselves, thinking, but I’m a good person, I’m no coward, I would do more.

Yet time and time again bystanders have done nothing.

Kitty Genovese anyone?

How about that old guy who was struck by multiple cars and people stood around and walked by and no one did a thing. What about the baby in California who was being stomped to death by his insane father on a highway. Dozens of eyewitnesses just stood there and watched and did nothing, one of the bystanders a fire chief (the only person who reacted was a cop who shot and killed the guy).

What about the greyhound bus guy? While the guy was being stabbed to death, everyone was screaming and running away, not running to help like Steven Segal. Everyone was practically stampeding to get off the bus, and eyewitnesses afterwards were claiming the guy was over six foot, bald, and some huge maniac (the killer was five foot nine, of medium build, and not bald).

Indeed it has been proven time and time again most people will do absolutely nothing in these situations. If you Bruce Willis’ out there personally experienced a situation where people were screaming, there was gunfire, a stabbing, blood and gore, unless you are there, then you don’t know. Period.

I would’ve done the same thing. Maybe scream at the rapist saying that I called the cops, or just to distract him or something, but how on earth do we know what we would do if put in to a situation like that.
Sure we can sit here and say we’d go in guns a blazin to save the day, but I’m sure most of us would do the same exact thing as those guys.

Do you not see the irony in hoping someone gets hurt just because they didn’t put themselves in harms way to protect someone else?

And was there no one else on the platform?? I’m supposed to believe that there was no one else anywhere around who could have done something other than the attendant and the conductor. Seriously? Why doesn’t she sue some of those douches who did absolutely nothing instead of the guys who called for help??

First, the station agent DIDN’T call the cops. He called the command post to get THEM to call the cops. Crucial moments could have been lost that way — it’s likely many moments, if you know the MTA…

Secondly, the station agent could have yelled loudly from inside the booth or used the intercom to say the cops were on the way — and remained perfectly safe.

@rkolter #28: The conductor could certainly have stopped the train. Other trains along the line might have been forced to stop and wait as well, but that inconvenience seems comparatively trivial. A train stopped in the station would have meant witnesses. The perp might have been caught and apprehended if there had been witnesses.

And yes, of course a conductor can see someone who is being raped on a station platform. That’s hard to miss. And he did see it, because he also called his command post.

By the way, the victim wasn’t drunk or sleeping. She was on her way to her sick boyfriend’s apartment, and she missed her stop because she was engaged in an altercation with the man who started touching her feet on the train — then followed her off the train and raped her.

Claims that men specifically should risk their lives for strangers aren’t fair. Women should be equally accountable. The Women’s Rights movement was to get women more power and therefore responsibility. This also means that men have less.

It comes down to risk vs reward. Men have less reward so they take less risk. If you want otherwise then you need stupider men.