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	<title>Comments on: The Problem of Money in Star Trek Economy</title>
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		<title>By: Christopher</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-1872574</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 15:53:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/#comment-1872574</guid>
		<description>The whole ST concept of economics is a load of crap. Like earlier posts stated, there will always be limited resources and disparities in talent and ability. Land cannot be replicated. Even if you can leave the planet, so what? Land on other planets can&#039;t be replicated either. And the cheapest land would be on far away planets with few people and little to no resources available, much like the western US in the 19th century, when the gub&#039;ment gave away land if you promised to maintain it. Then there’s energy. It may be cheap and abundant, but it will not be FREE. Energy must be produced; it will require machines, labor, time, and transport. These factors mean that energy will have a value. If you want an example of a modern-day form of energy that’s relatively cheap and abundant, yet we still complain about its cost, look at oil. Milk is more expensive than oil. Hand lotion is far more expensive than oil. Peanut butter might be 5-10 times its cost. Yet we still go nuts at the price of oil. You don’t think people would act the same way regarding antimatter in the 24th century? I gurantee you there would be a zillion PADD articles on the predatory nature and inherent danger of the “Big Antimatter” companies.

Then there will always be disparities in talent. You can see this in every episode by the mere fact of the ships hierarchy. Why is Jean-Luc a Captain and some random dude just a lieutenant? Because Picard is better than that other dude. He&#039;s smarter, more ambitious, a better ass-kisser, maybe simply more lucky. Whatever, the point is there will always be people who have less talent and luck than others. Hence you will have poverty. Maybe it won&#039;t be the abject poverty we see in some places of our time, but there will always be people who have less. For example: look at a poor person in America, compared to sub-Saharan Africa. A poor American likely lives in a small apartment, with few frills, bad heat and no AC, but there is little chance of dying from exposure. They can always go to an emergency room if they are ill, although quality of care is suspect. They will also have access to abundant amounts of cheap food, albeit very bad for you. An impoverished sub-Saharan African, meanwhile, likely has no shelter, little to no access to ANY kind of medical care, and is in a constant state of malnutrition. Being poor in America is a helluva lot better than being poor in sub-Saharan Africa, but poverty still exists in America. 24th century poverty might seem pretty sweet to us, but poverty will still exist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The whole ST concept of economics is a load of crap. Like earlier posts stated, there will always be limited resources and disparities in talent and ability. Land cannot be replicated. Even if you can leave the planet, so what? Land on other planets can't be replicated either. And the cheapest land would be on far away planets with few people and little to no resources available, much like the western US in the 19th century, when the gub'ment gave away land if you promised to maintain it. Then there’s energy. It may be cheap and abundant, but it will not be FREE. Energy must be produced; it will require machines, labor, time, and transport. These factors mean that energy will have a value. If you want an example of a modern-day form of energy that’s relatively cheap and abundant, yet we still complain about its cost, look at oil. Milk is more expensive than oil. Hand lotion is far more expensive than oil. Peanut butter might be 5-10 times its cost. Yet we still go nuts at the price of oil. You don’t think people would act the same way regarding antimatter in the 24th century? I gurantee you there would be a zillion PADD articles on the predatory nature and inherent danger of the “Big Antimatter” companies.</p>
<p>Then there will always be disparities in talent. You can see this in every episode by the mere fact of the ships hierarchy. Why is Jean-Luc a Captain and some random dude just a lieutenant? Because Picard is better than that other dude. He's smarter, more ambitious, a better ass-kisser, maybe simply more lucky. Whatever, the point is there will always be people who have less talent and luck than others. Hence you will have poverty. Maybe it won't be the abject poverty we see in some places of our time, but there will always be people who have less. For example: look at a poor person in America, compared to sub-Saharan Africa. A poor American likely lives in a small apartment, with few frills, bad heat and no AC, but there is little chance of dying from exposure. They can always go to an emergency room if they are ill, although quality of care is suspect. They will also have access to abundant amounts of cheap food, albeit very bad for you. An impoverished sub-Saharan African, meanwhile, likely has no shelter, little to no access to ANY kind of medical care, and is in a constant state of malnutrition. Being poor in America is a helluva lot better than being poor in sub-Saharan Africa, but poverty still exists in America. 24th century poverty might seem pretty sweet to us, but poverty will still exist.</p>
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		<title>By: drack</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-1826619</link>
		<dc:creator>drack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 21:40:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/#comment-1826619</guid>
		<description>&quot;Replicators use energy and energy isn’t free.&quot; 

Unless they came up with a low cost energy source. Like Solar Energy, Cold Fusion or Antimatter . Besides its a sci-fi show.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"Replicators use energy and energy isn’t free." </p>
<p>Unless they came up with a low cost energy source. Like Solar Energy, Cold Fusion or Antimatter . Besides its a sci-fi show.</p>
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		<title>By: philton</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-1728540</link>
		<dc:creator>philton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 08:53:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/#comment-1728540</guid>
		<description>everthing is provied by the state its socialism in exchange for room bored goods and sevices people work.everyone gets there own lil piece of heaven and the all agree to n ot live outside theyre means cause its bad for all. as for the grub work it needs to be done so we do it. nobady pays you to clean ur house or ur bathroom or recycle or take out the trash but u do because u must. so we all do r part and the galaxy is a nice place to live.so then lets say some guy wants to be a writer like Jake sisco hes not contributing like a street sweeper or an engineer like chief obrien.but he does his thing he does what he wants what he loves. and hopefully some other good individual will pick ujp the slack. some people r good at engineering and cleaning and cant be artists or physicists i for one would probably flunk out of star fleet but i could be a lzy artist like jake. and in that sense im not contributing but maybe that also means i cant move up in my social caste. its like the difference between owning land like picards family chateau to a tiny lil apartment in the city. as a hard intrepid worker u can have a house w awhite picket fence and a half acre. but an artis or a writer can never ;ive above his basic needs he gets a small apartment room and bored and thats all and he can be hapy and productive that way. or he can strive for more by working harder and he can someday own a chateu in france.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>everthing is provied by the state its socialism in exchange for room bored goods and sevices people work.everyone gets there own lil piece of heaven and the all agree to n ot live outside theyre means cause its bad for all. as for the grub work it needs to be done so we do it. nobady pays you to clean ur house or ur bathroom or recycle or take out the trash but u do because u must. so we all do r part and the galaxy is a nice place to live.so then lets say some guy wants to be a writer like Jake sisco hes not contributing like a street sweeper or an engineer like chief obrien.but he does his thing he does what he wants what he loves. and hopefully some other good individual will pick ujp the slack. some people r good at engineering and cleaning and cant be artists or physicists i for one would probably flunk out of star fleet but i could be a lzy artist like jake. and in that sense im not contributing but maybe that also means i cant move up in my social caste. its like the difference between owning land like picards family chateau to a tiny lil apartment in the city. as a hard intrepid worker u can have a house w awhite picket fence and a half acre. but an artis or a writer can never ;ive above his basic needs he gets a small apartment room and bored and thats all and he can be hapy and productive that way. or he can strive for more by working harder and he can someday own a chateu in france.</p>
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		<title>By: jerky7596</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-1724157</link>
		<dc:creator>jerky7596</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 May 2009 15:30:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/#comment-1724157</guid>
		<description>no money society
yes it is communism, sorta
right now you work get paid to pay rent
future you work as one to create a better universe
taking care of each other.
someone works on the pooh
others work on building houses and ships
other supplying electricty
there is still supply and demand but it someone job to make it so.
UTOPIA.
on a side note dead people and pooh is what makes the replicators work.
can not create something from nothing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>no money society<br />
yes it is communism, sorta<br />
right now you work get paid to pay rent<br />
future you work as one to create a better universe<br />
taking care of each other.<br />
someone works on the pooh<br />
others work on building houses and ships<br />
other supplying electricty<br />
there is still supply and demand but it someone job to make it so.<br />
UTOPIA.<br />
on a side note dead people and pooh is what makes the replicators work.<br />
can not create something from nothing.</p>
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		<title>By: phoenixesper1</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-1710166</link>
		<dc:creator>phoenixesper1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 May 2009 09:38:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/#comment-1710166</guid>
		<description>If anyone watched the original star trek movies  and the first TNG movie &quot;generations&quot;  there are multiple instances that show currency of some kind must still exist either on at least a strictly civilian level. Like in the begining of undiscovered country when the crew is entering the briefing and Uhora Mentions that she just bought a boat. Also in Generations we see when picard and kirk are in the nexis kirk enters his home and states he sold it years ago. But there are also points that go to show that money may exist in some form through the early star trek timeline but that it may be totally fazed out by TNG era when replicators are common place..... like in star trek four when kirk goes back in time and realizes that money is still being used.... and has sense enough to barter his glasses for cash, if all forms of money were gone by kirks time he would never have had the sense to do that....it would be like a person from are time going back to say  1890 and using a telegraph for the first time without ever haveing seen or heard of one. it would just never occur to them to use it. I would say that most likely money still existed much as it does today by the time &quot;ENTERPRISE&quot; era started, that money was essentially an extravagence credit system By the &quot;TOS&quot; era, meaning food, shelter and essentials were provided for but anything else you had to work to aqquire, much like the lifestyle of finland is today. and by TNG &quot; the magic and pixey dust system&quot; where all humans live in absolute harmony and can do no wrong with one another, but tends to extend their former problems as a society onto everyone else...but in a flowery sugar coated passive aggressive method.  Honestly i think currency exists on the civillian level, there&#039;s no other way to keep a planet of 9-11 billion individuals stable provided for... and most importantly Sane! the only way i see a truly free society existing is if the population were incredably small... like say under 10 million. that way the contributions of menial everyday life would serve a worthwile and meaningful purpose....like the aztecs of north america...minus the scrafices and eating of human hearts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If anyone watched the original star trek movies  and the first TNG movie "generations"  there are multiple instances that show currency of some kind must still exist either on at least a strictly civilian level. Like in the begining of undiscovered country when the crew is entering the briefing and Uhora Mentions that she just bought a boat. Also in Generations we see when picard and kirk are in the nexis kirk enters his home and states he sold it years ago. But there are also points that go to show that money may exist in some form through the early star trek timeline but that it may be totally fazed out by TNG era when replicators are common place..... like in star trek four when kirk goes back in time and realizes that money is still being used.... and has sense enough to barter his glasses for cash, if all forms of money were gone by kirks time he would never have had the sense to do that....it would be like a person from are time going back to say  1890 and using a telegraph for the first time without ever haveing seen or heard of one. it would just never occur to them to use it. I would say that most likely money still existed much as it does today by the time "ENTERPRISE" era started, that money was essentially an extravagence credit system By the "TOS" era, meaning food, shelter and essentials were provided for but anything else you had to work to aqquire, much like the lifestyle of finland is today. and by TNG " the magic and pixey dust system" where all humans live in absolute harmony and can do no wrong with one another, but tends to extend their former problems as a society onto everyone else...but in a flowery sugar coated passive aggressive method.  Honestly i think currency exists on the civillian level, there's no other way to keep a planet of 9-11 billion individuals stable provided for... and most importantly Sane! the only way i see a truly free society existing is if the population were incredably small... like say under 10 million. that way the contributions of menial everyday life would serve a worthwile and meaningful purpose....like the aztecs of north america...minus the scrafices and eating of human hearts.</p>
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		<title>By: The Foreigner</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-1619983</link>
		<dc:creator>The Foreigner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Apr 2009 10:50:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/#comment-1619983</guid>
		<description>Thomas Edison invents the replicator.  (An April Fool&#039;s prank from 1878.  Listed as #53 on a list of Top 100 April Fool&#039;s Jokes)

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/aprilfool/P50/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thomas Edison invents the replicator.  (An April Fool's prank from 1878.  Listed as #53 on a list of Top 100 April Fool's Jokes)</p>
<p><a href="http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/aprilfool/P50/" rel="nofollow">http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/aprilfool/P50/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Daneil</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-1607658</link>
		<dc:creator>Daneil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 15:09:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/#comment-1607658</guid>
		<description>Actually, they seem to use money in the TOS episode &#039;Mudd&#039;s Women&#039;.  The Enterprise is badly in need of lithium crystals and Captain Kirk tells the miners on Rigel XII that they&#039;ll receive the standard federation payment.

Granted, he doesn&#039;t say cold hard cash, but there is clearly a scarcity / supply and demand system at play here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, they seem to use money in the TOS episode 'Mudd's Women'.  The Enterprise is badly in need of lithium crystals and Captain Kirk tells the miners on Rigel XII that they'll receive the standard federation payment.</p>
<p>Granted, he doesn't say cold hard cash, but there is clearly a scarcity / supply and demand system at play here.</p>
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		<title>By: The Foreigner</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-1606824</link>
		<dc:creator>The Foreigner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 17:51:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/#comment-1606824</guid>
		<description>@Noah Kleihman

Didn&#039;t know he&#039;d done another album.

But his first one (1968) was ranked #45 on a list of the 50 worst albums ever made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Transformed_Man</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Noah Kleihman</p>
<p>Didn't know he'd done another album.</p>
<p>But his first one (1968) was ranked #45 on a list of the 50 worst albums ever made.</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Transformed_Man" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Transformed_Man</a></p>
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		<title>By: Kalel</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-1606726</link>
		<dc:creator>Kalel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 17:05:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/#comment-1606726</guid>
		<description>&quot;What about the episode where the highly advanced aliens were wagering “quatloos” or something like that ??&quot;

That was on the episode called &quot;The Gamesters of Triskelion&quot;, and &#039;quatloos&#039; were never defined by the little glowing brain-beings that used them in wagering.

Judging by the look of the humanoid Thralls, I&#039;d say quatloos had to do with mascara, hairspray, and artificial bearskins.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"What about the episode where the highly advanced aliens were wagering “quatloos” or something like that ??"</p>
<p>That was on the episode called "The Gamesters of Triskelion", and 'quatloos' were never defined by the little glowing brain-beings that used them in wagering.</p>
<p>Judging by the look of the humanoid Thralls, I'd say quatloos had to do with mascara, hairspray, and artificial bearskins.</p>
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		<title>By: Noah Kleiman</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-1606607</link>
		<dc:creator>Noah Kleiman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 16:02:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/#comment-1606607</guid>
		<description>@The Foreigner

Shatner&#039;s record, &quot;Has Been&quot;, produced by Ben Folds is exquisite. Wouldn&#039;t accuse Shatner of pretending to be a singer, though. Spoken word combined with music and guest performances.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@The Foreigner</p>
<p>Shatner's record, "Has Been", produced by Ben Folds is exquisite. Wouldn't accuse Shatner of pretending to be a singer, though. Spoken word combined with music and guest performances.</p>
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		<title>By: SWFL guy</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-1606266</link>
		<dc:creator>SWFL guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 13:12:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/#comment-1606266</guid>
		<description>What about the episode where the highly advanced aliens were wagering &quot;quatloos&quot; or something like that ??</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about the episode where the highly advanced aliens were wagering "quatloos" or something like that ??</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-1605851</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 10:07:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/#comment-1605851</guid>
		<description>What???? Gene Roddenberry didn&#039;t work out all the details of his vision of 23rd century economics? Oh, no! Next you&#039;ll be telling me he never totally fleshed out the transporter beam, or the warp drive!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What???? Gene Roddenberry didn't work out all the details of his vision of 23rd century economics? Oh, no! Next you'll be telling me he never totally fleshed out the transporter beam, or the warp drive!</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-1605118</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 04:01:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/#comment-1605118</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m pretty sure those Tribbles weren&#039;t free.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm pretty sure those Tribbles weren't free.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Dollak</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-1604923</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Dollak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 02:29:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/#comment-1604923</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m glad to see so many attentive Trekkies &amp; Trekkers (say 5 times fast) contributing!

The Trek universe has never been terribly consistent regarding details, but has generally striven for a positive view of &quot;the future,&quot; one in which the characters work to resolve problems.  Money was rarely if ever discussed on TOS (aside from alien currencies).  In Star Trek II (Wrath of Khan) we do see a janitor vacuuming a corridor at Starfleet Academy.  In Star Treks III and VI we also see kitchen staff wiping down tables and preparing food.  So &quot;grub work&quot; probably still exists.  (The reason for these details is directorial choice.  Nicholas Meyer [II &amp; VI] liked to include familiar touches like books, eyeglasses, old-fashioned furniture.)  One could argue that humans still need to do all these chores on Star Trek, and therefore money may still be the incentive.  However, one could also simply draw a comparison with modern life &amp; technology: The Roomba sure saves one a lot of vacuuming, but has trouble with corners and shag carpeting.  Windshield wipers are great, but one still must squeegee the wildshield by hand on occasion.  You can subsist on fast food, but nothing beats a home-cooked meal.  So we may perhaps assume that in Star Trek, everyone on a starship has a chore list and probably puts in a couple of hours a week picking up a few dust-bunnies the Roomba missed.  Also, some people really LOVE to cook.

Besides, gakh is best served live.  (And revenge is a dish best served cold.)

Star Trek IV - Not meaning to be less than gentlemanly, Kirk nevertheless sticks the marine biologist with the restaurant bill.  &quot;Don&#039;t tell me you don&#039;t use money in the 23rd Century!&quot;  &quot;Well, we don&#039;t.&quot;

ST:TNG, pilot episode - We see Dr. Crusher buying some linen with some form of credit.  My guess is that some form of money does exist, but seems to be unnecessary on Earth, in Starfleet, and possibly on all Federation worlds.  This would make sense, but was never elaborated on.  (A modern parallel would be the Euro, accepted all over Europe; Poland still uses zloty but did join the EU a few years ago.)  Kirk probably also had credit for making purchases on a few participating worlds that still used money.  But as any time-traveler quickly finds out, money from the future is not accepted in the past.  (Unless it&#039;s made of &quot;valuable&quot; minerals.  Klaatu&#039;s diamonds from &quot;The Day the Earth Stood Still&quot; are an example of this exception.)  Kirk could not have paid for his spaghetti &amp; Chianti, because in the 20th Century his account did not exist.

I&#039;ve often had to explain to people during economic discussions that we often forget that money is really worth what &quot;we&quot; agree it will be worth.  (Problems arise when balances change, people get greedy, and everyone starts imagining that money is more solvent than it really is.)  A global currency unit might be a bad thing, or a very good thing.  It might even be a step toward a money-less economy.

This, however, would require fully-automated trash collecting &amp; recycling.  And we&#039;ll all need to be taught from birth that one&#039;s happiness does NOT require another&#039;s misery (the root cause of greed).  Otherwise, as HollywoodBob put it, society will get stratified all over again.

Oh - and re: vonSkippy: They do poo in Star Trek.  Check out the blueprints for the Enterprise, and you&#039;ll see the commode fixtures in the crew quarters&#039; bathrooms.  They just never appeared on the show, like the Brady Bunch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm glad to see so many attentive Trekkies &amp; Trekkers (say 5 times fast) contributing!</p>
<p>The Trek universe has never been terribly consistent regarding details, but has generally striven for a positive view of "the future," one in which the characters work to resolve problems.  Money was rarely if ever discussed on TOS (aside from alien currencies).  In Star Trek II (Wrath of Khan) we do see a janitor vacuuming a corridor at Starfleet Academy.  In Star Treks III and VI we also see kitchen staff wiping down tables and preparing food.  So "grub work" probably still exists.  (The reason for these details is directorial choice.  Nicholas Meyer [II &amp; VI] liked to include familiar touches like books, eyeglasses, old-fashioned furniture.)  One could argue that humans still need to do all these chores on Star Trek, and therefore money may still be the incentive.  However, one could also simply draw a comparison with modern life &amp; technology: The Roomba sure saves one a lot of vacuuming, but has trouble with corners and shag carpeting.  Windshield wipers are great, but one still must squeegee the wildshield by hand on occasion.  You can subsist on fast food, but nothing beats a home-cooked meal.  So we may perhaps assume that in Star Trek, everyone on a starship has a chore list and probably puts in a couple of hours a week picking up a few dust-bunnies the Roomba missed.  Also, some people really LOVE to cook.</p>
<p>Besides, gakh is best served live.  (And revenge is a dish best served cold.)</p>
<p>Star Trek IV - Not meaning to be less than gentlemanly, Kirk nevertheless sticks the marine biologist with the restaurant bill.  "Don't tell me you don't use money in the 23rd Century!"  "Well, we don't."</p>
<p>ST:TNG, pilot episode - We see Dr. Crusher buying some linen with some form of credit.  My guess is that some form of money does exist, but seems to be unnecessary on Earth, in Starfleet, and possibly on all Federation worlds.  This would make sense, but was never elaborated on.  (A modern parallel would be the Euro, accepted all over Europe; Poland still uses zloty but did join the EU a few years ago.)  Kirk probably also had credit for making purchases on a few participating worlds that still used money.  But as any time-traveler quickly finds out, money from the future is not accepted in the past.  (Unless it's made of "valuable" minerals.  Klaatu's diamonds from "The Day the Earth Stood Still" are an example of this exception.)  Kirk could not have paid for his spaghetti &amp; Chianti, because in the 20th Century his account did not exist.</p>
<p>I've often had to explain to people during economic discussions that we often forget that money is really worth what "we" agree it will be worth.  (Problems arise when balances change, people get greedy, and everyone starts imagining that money is more solvent than it really is.)  A global currency unit might be a bad thing, or a very good thing.  It might even be a step toward a money-less economy.</p>
<p>This, however, would require fully-automated trash collecting &amp; recycling.  And we'll all need to be taught from birth that one's happiness does NOT require another's misery (the root cause of greed).  Otherwise, as HollywoodBob put it, society will get stratified all over again.</p>
<p>Oh - and re: vonSkippy: They do poo in Star Trek.  Check out the blueprints for the Enterprise, and you'll see the commode fixtures in the crew quarters' bathrooms.  They just never appeared on the show, like the Brady Bunch.</p>
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		<title>By: skidworth</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-1604834</link>
		<dc:creator>skidworth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 02:00:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/#comment-1604834</guid>
		<description>&quot;The fact that people dissect the economy of a fake TV world makes me want to laugh.&quot;

no doubt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"The fact that people dissect the economy of a fake TV world makes me want to laugh."</p>
<p>no doubt.</p>
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		<title>By: HollywoodBob</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-1604684</link>
		<dc:creator>HollywoodBob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 01:01:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/#comment-1604684</guid>
		<description>Deep Space Nine is a good case study for humanity&#039;s future economy.  One example is Sisko&#039;s Creole Kitchen, the restaurant run by Joseph Sisko, the place is always busy, yet no one pays for anything.  Joe runs the place because he loves it, not because of the money it would make him.  Jake becomes a writer for the love of writing.  Artists work for the sake of their craft, people in Starfleet enter for the opportunities that it presents.

Someone mentioned rent and land values, land is only scarce if you can&#039;t leave the planet, millions of humans have migrated to the stars.  Cityscapes are far more massive than they are now, and without the need to commute land that is currently uninhabited, could very well have been reclaimed and made into massive housing centers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Deep Space Nine is a good case study for humanity's future economy.  One example is Sisko's Creole Kitchen, the restaurant run by Joseph Sisko, the place is always busy, yet no one pays for anything.  Joe runs the place because he loves it, not because of the money it would make him.  Jake becomes a writer for the love of writing.  Artists work for the sake of their craft, people in Starfleet enter for the opportunities that it presents.</p>
<p>Someone mentioned rent and land values, land is only scarce if you can't leave the planet, millions of humans have migrated to the stars.  Cityscapes are far more massive than they are now, and without the need to commute land that is currently uninhabited, could very well have been reclaimed and made into massive housing centers.</p>
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		<title>By: Nyrath</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-1604075</link>
		<dc:creator>Nyrath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2009 22:11:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/#comment-1604075</guid>
		<description>This has been discussed in various classic works of science fiction, such as Ralph Williams&#039;s &quot;Business as Usual, During Alterations&quot;  Murray Leinster&#039;s The Duplicators, or George O. Smith&#039;s &quot;Pandora&#039;s Millions&quot;. 

I ramble on about it on my website:
http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3al.html#consequences</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This has been discussed in various classic works of science fiction, such as Ralph Williams's "Business as Usual, During Alterations"  Murray Leinster's The Duplicators, or George O. Smith's "Pandora's Millions". </p>
<p>I ramble on about it on my website:<br />
<a href="http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3al.html#consequences" rel="nofollow">http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3al.html#consequences</a></p>
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		<title>By: Non</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-1603912</link>
		<dc:creator>Non</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2009 21:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/#comment-1603912</guid>
		<description>Maybe prestige is like currency. Basic needs are provided for, but you&#039;re looked down on (or even perhaps ignored more or less) unless you try to better humanity. Your social ranking goes up (like money) when you try harder, perhaps driving these future star trek people to work more?
Think of it like our buddy the working canines out there. Herding dogs. True they get paid in kibble, but its more than that, that drives them to try harder. They desire approval.
Maybe it works something like that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe prestige is like currency. Basic needs are provided for, but you're looked down on (or even perhaps ignored more or less) unless you try to better humanity. Your social ranking goes up (like money) when you try harder, perhaps driving these future star trek people to work more?<br />
Think of it like our buddy the working canines out there. Herding dogs. True they get paid in kibble, but its more than that, that drives them to try harder. They desire approval.<br />
Maybe it works something like that?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: seefish3</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-1603675</link>
		<dc:creator>seefish3</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2009 20:02:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/#comment-1603675</guid>
		<description>Doing something &quot;for the good of Humankind&quot; is impossible for this culture to understand, but I have to say I&#039;d clean any alien race&#039;s toilet for a chance to get on the Enterprise.

With my tongue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doing something "for the good of Humankind" is impossible for this culture to understand, but I have to say I'd clean any alien race's toilet for a chance to get on the Enterprise.</p>
<p>With my tongue.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: AK-00</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-1603640</link>
		<dc:creator>AK-00</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2009 19:47:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/#comment-1603640</guid>
		<description>Some of the arguments here strikingly reminiscent of the devoutly religious arguing that, without religion, there&#039;d be no ethics, and with much the same flaws in reasoning.

Before money, the so called &quot;scut work&quot; got done because it was recognised that it needed doing. I imagine that Star Fleet personnel would also recognise that, if they didn&#039;t crawl around inside a Jeffries Tube, something would stop working, the ship would break, and somebody could die.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some of the arguments here strikingly reminiscent of the devoutly religious arguing that, without religion, there'd be no ethics, and with much the same flaws in reasoning.</p>
<p>Before money, the so called "scut work" got done because it was recognised that it needed doing. I imagine that Star Fleet personnel would also recognise that, if they didn't crawl around inside a Jeffries Tube, something would stop working, the ship would break, and somebody could die.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: required</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-1603541</link>
		<dc:creator>required</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2009 19:11:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/#comment-1603541</guid>
		<description>scutwork is subjective</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>scutwork is subjective</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Gadget Sleuth</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-1603514</link>
		<dc:creator>Gadget Sleuth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2009 19:02:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/#comment-1603514</guid>
		<description>The fact that people dissect the economy of a fake TV world makes me want to laugh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The fact that people dissect the economy of a fake TV world makes me want to laugh.</p>
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		<title>By: VonSkippy</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-1603466</link>
		<dc:creator>VonSkippy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2009 18:47:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/#comment-1603466</guid>
		<description>You know what else they don&#039;t use in Star Trek?  Bathrooms.  Apparently without money there is no reason to Poo in the future either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know what else they don't use in Star Trek?  Bathrooms.  Apparently without money there is no reason to Poo in the future either.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: MIchaelS</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-1603406</link>
		<dc:creator>MIchaelS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2009 18:28:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/#comment-1603406</guid>
		<description>Why is everyone afraid of the &quot;C&quot; word?  They&#039;re pretty clearly communists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why is everyone afraid of the "C" word?  They're pretty clearly communists.</p>
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		<title>By: The Foreigner</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-1603258</link>
		<dc:creator>The Foreigner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2009 17:32:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/#comment-1603258</guid>
		<description>Glad that HollywoodBob mentioned the DS9 episode, &quot;In the Cards,&quot; because that one REALLY demonstrated the utter absurdity of Roddenberry&#039;s ST:NG economic vision.

Jake wants to buy his father a real, authentic 1951 Willie Mays baseball card.  But his society is &quot;far too advanced&quot; to use money anymore.  So instead of a single cash (or latinum) transaction, Jake has to waste DAYS of his life engaging in elaborate barter schemes.

BARTER.  When confronted by scarcity, the best the poor citizens of the HIGHLY ADVANCED Federation can do is resort to economic practices used by civilizations existing in PREHISTORY.

And forget about the scarcity problem -- what about the misallocation problem?  Given the subject, let&#039;s use William Shatner as an example.  The man&#039;s an actor, a sci-fi writer, and a LEGENDARY singer .  How should he allocate his time, talents and efforts?

In a cash economy, he knows that society values his acting skills quite highly, his writing skills somewhat, and his singing skills -- well, very little.  He knows that he&#039;ll probably starve if he spends his life trying to cut albums.  Society provides him with the incentives to devote his life to acting and writing.

Contrast that result with the results under Roddenberry&#039;s moneyless utopia.  Even if William Shatner were a 100% altruist, how would he know how to spend his time to maximize the benefit to society?  &lt;b&gt;He might very well err and torture us all with more of his albums.&lt;/b&gt;  And that&#039;s the sort of mistake that would happen ALL THE TIME in the Federation of a ST:NG universe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Glad that HollywoodBob mentioned the DS9 episode, "In the Cards," because that one REALLY demonstrated the utter absurdity of Roddenberry's ST:NG economic vision.</p>
<p>Jake wants to buy his father a real, authentic 1951 Willie Mays baseball card.  But his society is "far too advanced" to use money anymore.  So instead of a single cash (or latinum) transaction, Jake has to waste DAYS of his life engaging in elaborate barter schemes.</p>
<p>BARTER.  When confronted by scarcity, the best the poor citizens of the HIGHLY ADVANCED Federation can do is resort to economic practices used by civilizations existing in PREHISTORY.</p>
<p>And forget about the scarcity problem -- what about the misallocation problem?  Given the subject, let's use William Shatner as an example.  The man's an actor, a sci-fi writer, and a LEGENDARY singer .  How should he allocate his time, talents and efforts?</p>
<p>In a cash economy, he knows that society values his acting skills quite highly, his writing skills somewhat, and his singing skills -- well, very little.  He knows that he'll probably starve if he spends his life trying to cut albums.  Society provides him with the incentives to devote his life to acting and writing.</p>
<p>Contrast that result with the results under Roddenberry's moneyless utopia.  Even if William Shatner were a 100% altruist, how would he know how to spend his time to maximize the benefit to society?  <b>He might very well err and torture us all with more of his albums.</b>  And that's the sort of mistake that would happen ALL THE TIME in the Federation of a ST:NG universe.</p>
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		<title>By: Johnny Cat</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-1603237</link>
		<dc:creator>Johnny Cat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2009 17:28:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/#comment-1603237</guid>
		<description>I was under the impression that the Ferenghies were money-based.  They ran a casino, didn&#039;t they?  One that many Federation humans patronized.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was under the impression that the Ferenghies were money-based.  They ran a casino, didn't they?  One that many Federation humans patronized.</p>
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		<title>By: Kalel</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-1603171</link>
		<dc:creator>Kalel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2009 17:03:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/#comment-1603171</guid>
		<description>Off camera, they are trading chickens for dilithium crystals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Off camera, they are trading chickens for dilithium crystals.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: D Bozko</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-1602880</link>
		<dc:creator>D Bozko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2009 15:23:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/#comment-1602880</guid>
		<description>There was always &quot;scut&quot; work, striatic. What about all that climbing around in the Jeffries tubes to fix something.
I&#039;ve pondered the question of what motivates the crewmen myself.  Captain is one thing but it&#039;s still a job like all others. Duty assignments require you to be at a certain place at a certain time performing a certain task.  That&#039;s work in anybody&#039;s book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There was always "scut" work, striatic. What about all that climbing around in the Jeffries tubes to fix something.<br />
I've pondered the question of what motivates the crewmen myself.  Captain is one thing but it's still a job like all others. Duty assignments require you to be at a certain place at a certain time performing a certain task.  That's work in anybody's book.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Lars</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-1602875</link>
		<dc:creator>Lars</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2009 15:19:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/#comment-1602875</guid>
		<description>The Federation doesn&#039;t use money, but plenty of other cultures in the ST universe do, including non-Federation earthlings.  The implication is that non-Federation Earthlings still require money.  I believe that the Citizens (soldiers) in Starship Troopers have a similar system to the Federation, while non-Citizens still deal in a credit based economy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Federation doesn't use money, but plenty of other cultures in the ST universe do, including non-Federation earthlings.  The implication is that non-Federation Earthlings still require money.  I believe that the Citizens (soldiers) in Starship Troopers have a similar system to the Federation, while non-Citizens still deal in a credit based economy.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Ricky Ricardo</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-1602695</link>
		<dc:creator>Ricky Ricardo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2009 13:49:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/29/the-problem-of-money-in-star-trek-economy/#comment-1602695</guid>
		<description>Cory Doctorow&#039;s &quot;Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom&quot; also deals with a scarcity free / reputation based economy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cory Doctorow's "Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom" also deals with a scarcity free / reputation based economy.</p>
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