Neatorama has is a gem among blogs. I've been coming daily for just over a year now. Each visit yielding a myriad of new interesting facts, trivia, cultural curiosities, offbeat artists..... Until now. The UPCOMING QUEUE is wreaking Neatorama, and I'm surely not alone in this sentiment. I'd rather see fewer posts than have the roster bumped up with the very un"Neat" fodder overwhelming the front page. Neatorama has a certain 'brand' of post, please don't let this blog spiral downward via the UPCOMING QUEUE.
Fark has it's place, and I'll go there for the silly farklike posts, Neatorama has it's place, don't lose sight of it. Please use this post as the start of a discussion in the comments section and let the Neatorama public have a chance to voice. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe people are digging the new system, but let's find out.
Sincerely yours,
Dan. Neatorama fanboy.
From the Upcoming ueue, submitted by rellimz.
Finally, yes it is completely ironic that this post comes through the upcoming queue itself...
I think the queue is a great method for getting more content to the blog, in the past i have submitted a few things, but it wasn't something i took the time out to do often because there was no immediate reaction to what was sent. i've quite enjoyed being able to share things i find neat too, i've used reddit in the past, and found most things i submit get overlooked easily, but here the smaller community, and more focussed audience coupled with editors that have the final say have meant i've been able to share interesting things which get seen.
I think also the editors are checking most posts themselves before posting, making edits and whatnot so even if something gets all the votes in the world, if it's not really neat and fitting with the site it won't go on.
honestly i think it's a good feature, in its early stages, over time it'll improve and settle in and could become a great part of the site.
I've been playing with the Queue since the beginning :
I believe there's still an editorial oversight since, as usual, some (most?) of my suggestions got erased quite quickly, even the one I believed truly to be neat :)
I'm with Jake : " i think it's a good feature, in its early stages, over time it'll improve and settle in and could become a great part of the site."
It should be a magic number, and it should probably be less than 15 to make it reasonable. Maybe 9...number 9...number 9...number 9...
I consider them to be two different blogs. I go to the main site for the classically neat content. I go to the queue for, well, better content than almost any other blog but not quite neat enough for the main site.
BTW, I delinked the post, since it went into the archives (I know the original poster rellimz had to pick a URL. It's not a bad one to pick, but irrelevant to the discussion at hand.)
I come here for hand picked 'neat' stuff but all this user-centric garbage keeps floating up to the main page.
Am i being clear enough?
Example: From time to time users will submit content, then lobby their friends to press the Neat button. There may be no such thing (yet) as ‘power users’ on neatorama, but with the upcoming queue determining front page content, there’s bound to be manipulation.
I think I've witnessed this a few times.
@Paul, I think you're being overly optimistic. By 'evolving' and undergoing 'change', neatorama is at a serious risk of losing its niche that could quickly be replaced by other quality sites like boingboing. I'd rather see us adopt one of their strategies of allowing 'guest bloggers' to post quality content.
@Dan/rellimz Thanks for posting this. The site is changing and users should talk about those changes on the front page.
Youre killing yourself!
I know the old way is more time consuming for the staff at neatorama, but you've already spoiled us with your excellent posts. I guess it just feels like we're losing that unique feel your site offers when it's just purely user submitted and produced content.
/lava
Also, didn't Winston Churchill make up the word "Queuetopia" to describe communist countries that had to line up to buy things? Just a thought.
I hate seeing things I've already downvoted make it to the front page, so I get annoyed with Neatorama. I've enjoyed the site very much in the past, but now I barely skim most of the selections because I don't expect the quality to be as good.
I'm all for innovation, but this is a step WAY down in quality for Neatorama.
Also, registering my username has the adverse effect of taking three more steps to actually posting a comment. Is there no way for us to login and comment at the same time?
As I see it it is a way of making the suggestions to the editors public (and maybe make their job a little easier). I mean, some of us we send suggestions from time to time. Those may be picked or not, but I guess that sometimes they are not chosen just because the editors do not have time to check every submission or to write a whole post about them. As the queue shows, people can send anything and everything...
Editors can keep Neatorama "cool" by approving what THEY like NO MATTER how many votes a post receives and -maybe- by having the option to add their own smart or spicy comments to the post once it goes to the main site.
On the other hand, us, the readers, we can totally skip the queue if we don't like to read anything that is not "pure" Neatorama but if we have some time to kill we can go to the queue to take a glance to what is being "suggested" to the editors as we do with other blogs out there.
Another thing that may help would be to have a limit of posts per day per user to have more variety in the queue.
My two cents, San :)
Either the filters need to improve, or the feature needs to die.
1. Apologists who trust blindly in neatorama management decision making.
2. and "SHUT IT DOWN!"
Who cares what other sites do? That isn't a reason to keep queue bot.
It's just too much in quantity and not exactly better in quality. At times it has become overwhelming and too often repetitive. I find my self using the 'mark all as read' option in gReader or just skimming over posts, which used to never happen.
I suggest that if this is going to continue, that maybe two feeds should be set up.
Thanks!
The hardcore neatophiles will still need to read and vote, but the casual users like me can still enjoy the simple main page.
Same with GeekyGirl; the original Neatorama was more interesting and had quality posts.
Keep user voting, but ignore the results. Let voting be like the disconnected office thermostat that everyone fiddles with thinking they have some power when really it's the janitor who controls everyone's fate.
Or maybe dump voting. Before queue voting began, I accepted everything on Neatorama's front page. If something didn't interest me, I skipped past it without a second thought. But now, it's like every day is election day and I'm sitting here helpless as no good stinkin' weasels get elected to office, and each time that happens I am reminded that my interests aren't as similar to those of the Neatorama glitterati as I'd thought.
(And when it comes to this class of blog, I'm definitely looking for bloggers who have similar interests or attitudes to my own.)
Neatorama was practically perfect before. I have no idea why you felt like it needed to be changed.
But it's almost a chore these days to sift through the posts. I find myself almost dreading going through Neatorama posts, which is ridiculous! I keep doing it because I know there's great stuff buried in there, but I'm getting sick of it.
I agree with what others are saying: MAKE IT A SEPARATE RSS FEED or at least a separate website. That way, I can continue to read just a few high-quality posts and the people who enjoy the Upcoming Queue feature can enjoy its offerings. How's that?
Now, everyday, my reader is stuffed with piles of crap I read elsewhere or simply don't want to know.
So my first opinion was to abolish the upcomeing queue. However after reading comments here and seeing that there are two sides to the argument (some people clearly like reading stuff here, as well as re-reading it on fark, metafilter, digg etc) I see the advantages to creating 2 RSS feeds. One for Neatorama authors, the other for the Upcoming queue.
That way I'll be happy and so will the queue supporters. Oh, and the people who actually visit the neatorama page itself? They can enjoy the best of two worlds.
Simple!
- a loyal reader
However, I'm not saying that it should be entirely taken off the site. Just like Paul said, "Social networking is part of the current evolution of the internet, it’s only right for a site like this to evolve and change with time."
What makes Neatorama better than the rest is its unique perspective of the Internet's constant expansion; the authors from here have helped me find some amazing things, and thus far, while the rest of the Internet is constantly having to change to keep its audience, I still would've enjoyed Neatorama if it hadn't changed, as it is easy to navigate, has a clean look, has friendly people, and always has something that catches my attention.
People have something to say, and like the idea of being able to communicate to the large community of Neatorama readers, but it is growing more and more evident that the new system does not work with the old one. One problem that Neatorama faces is that if the Upcoming Queue is separated as a different part of Neatorama, I for one, along with many other readers, will almost never check it, and therefore there would be no incentive to write your own articles. Another problem is that because it is almost based on random chance or on popularity, as philliposophy put it, not on the quality of the article, fewer people are spending the time to put thought into each post.
From what I can tell, there has been a lot of work put into putting together an UQ system, and it would be a waste turning all that work into nothing. The system has potential; I for one would love to see my articles make the front page; perhaps there needs to be a change in the system.
If there is to be a change, we should definitely wait until this contest is over. I have yet to see Neatorama not uphold its promises, and this would be awful as its first time.
I don't know how difficult this change would be, but my proposal is an idea based on Anonymity. What makes the front page could be judged by the following criteria: a random potential article is shown to several random users who go onto the Upcoming Queue, perhaps ten users. Out of those ten users, none of them having any knowledge of how all the other readers vote, can say whether they liked it, disliked it, or were neutral based on the quality of the writing and the neatness of the item at hand. They would only be able to see one article at a time, and would have to vote to go onto the next one. Any article with a sufficiently high value, such as 5 neutrals and 5 thumbs up, would go onto the front page.
I feel that such a strategy would greatly improve the way articles are written, as quality would be of more value, and I'm guessing that the knowledge of actually making a difference of what articles make it will inspire Neatorama readers to actually want to take part in this system.
Social networking and user generated content is nice and all - but there is definitely still a place for editors in this world! I read gizmodo instead of engadget because of the voice of the blog, and it -was- the same reason I would read neatorama over fark.
I also happen there's way too many posts here in a daily basis. Some of us have jobs, and can't afford to wade through 100 posts of muck to get a few nuggets of neatness.
But I don't think the whole problem is the queuebot itself. I think a LOT of the problem is from the contest. Sorry, neatorama editors, but I think this was very poorly managed. now people are REWARDED by throwing as much junk at this as they can, and copy/pasting pages to make it go as fast as possible.
So, I see a couple solutions: remove the queuebot. or make separate RSS feeds and home pages for each. I miss reading things posted by the great editors here!
1) Become its own neatorama associated site (like boingboing's othersites).
2) Have its own, separate feed. This would allow for easy distinction of the content for all people who consume this website via feed (such as myself).
everytime i read a post, and then start thinking "man, this is only kinda neat" i then look to the bottom and sure nuff it's a qbot post.
i agree with dan.
Im not ready to kill the queue, I think its a great opportunity to participate in the blog. I have submitted links prior to the queue but I think this is a little nicer and lets the submitter have a voice on the front page which is pretty cool.
I have the same problems with the queue as everyone else
*Massive amounts of front paged post
*Lack of quality posts.
*People submitting content that is not in the vein of what we've come to expect from Neatorama
*Reposts. I dont mind an occasional repost by Neatorama authors if enough time has passed since last posted because more than likely the post is still neat
*Spam
One suggestion I have is to limit the number of times a user can submit to once a day.
I think, like the forum, the activity will die down a lot after the first month. I think a lot of people are motivated to participate in the queue because of the reward, which, I think was your intent. Its cool that folks are playing along but it seems like there isnt much thought being put into what people post. The casual visitor may not notice but the Neatorama regulars can see a big difference. There are a lot of us that comment, submit and post on the forum regularly but I am positive that there are just as many quietly read the blog on a daily basis.
Also, bad posts are Adam's realm. I dont want the quebot taking his place :p
Back to the list of possible improvements:
1. Separate feeds (a must do)
2. Don't make it about quantity but about quality and limit the # of posts per day per person. So if people want to link to their own site, they will to think harder on what to post -quality wise-, if they are limited to i.e. 2 posts per day. I have seen some people posting everything they have, I guess that hoping "something" will make it to the front page.
3. Don't use the votes to select the postings that will make it to Neatorama, make it an editor's decision
4. Give yourselves the option to add comments.
Now, if you have to choose just one option, it has to be #1. If I was receiving NR via feed I would also be very unhappy of receiving the queue with it!
I'm sure there's a place for the UQ, but maybe it could be relegated to a separate feed, with one or two human approved posts making it to the regular site per day?
I have been a daily reader for a long time now and the avalanche of stuff makes it really difficult to find the good bits now. Up to the point where I tend to lose interest..
UPCOMING QUEUES should be kept under a totally separate tab(for the days when I have A LOT OF SPARE TIME to look at it!) for the sake of clarity and quality
We've seen a lot of neat stuff that might have been missed otherwise, but we've also suffered a certain percentage of dross and repeats.
I'm not one of the naysayers who's going to say 'dump it' because I think it does have a use - but I don't think automagically raising posts that gather votes to the front page is that use - we've already seen it being abused by other communities gathering mass votes to greenlight stuff that doesn't belong there.
Maybe a constructive way forward is to retain the queue, but 'not' on the front page or in the main RSS feed... let the votes raise stuff in the 'league' to bring them to human attention, but retain the human touch that's made Neatorama as neat as it is to actually make the decisions... no algorithm yet written is a substitute for good taste. :-)
R
-Wayne
"I believe there’s still an editorial oversight since, as usual, some (most?) of my suggestions got erased quite quickly, even the one I believed truly to be neat"
This person, who I'm sure has read Neatorama for a long time and knows what kind of content goes here, submitted posts he didn't even think were 'neat.' The system encourages bulk posting, increasing quantity and decreasing quality.
And yes, it clogs up my feed reader. I miss old Neatorama.
Can do without so much of the Q.
Now with the Quebot, there's just too much content. Many posts are not quality and they are the same content I'm seeing at other sites. Like many others have commented, its just too much work now to come here and have to sift through 'eh' posts to get to the gemmies.
I'm for quality over quantity and that was what Neatorama had before the Quebot.
You can't please everyone all the time I guess. Just give it some time.
I am, however, willing to give it a month or so to level out.
I like the idea of a place for user generated contnent, but it shouldn't be here IMO
Kudos to Dan Fanboy BTW, for having the with to start this discussion and post it in Q-bot
To summarise - I don't like it, please make it stop
The Queue makes me angry most days.
What seems to have distressed the long-timers here is not the EXISTENCE of the queue, but its implementation - particularly the automatic bumps to the main page. That could be overcome by letting votes be cast, but have them not be sufficient for promotion - let the latter be purely an administrative decision.
It's true that the current system can be gamed, but I doubt anyone will go to that trouble just to procure a Neatorama t-shirt (however handsome they may be). The only practical reason to get ten friends to vote your submission up is for blogspam in an attempt to gain Technorati authority. That sort of thing should be detectable by the admins, who can deep-six a submission even if it has 20 upvotes.
@philliposophy, I don't see it as a camp of pros and a camp of haters. I like the idea that Paul and many others have put forward, that the UQ become it's own thing (a la Boingboing Gadgets). A daily roundup could be promoted on the front page with links to the UQ page.
It's a gorgeous sunny day here in Toronto. I'm going outside to play.
I have been Neatoramanaut for about three years now. I came from the link on Fortean Times and stayed because of the quality and uniqueness of the blog.
now, I'm sure there are fixes for this: but incoming traffic won't care about fixes, incoming traffic cares about whether the site works or not. I tried showing Funny or Die to my parents but the amount of adware scared them off. Now, it won't matter if the content is great or terrible, they won't go back. I'm afraid that if the Queuebot remains as is, it will kill Neatorama entirely for any new traffic.
I kinda enjoyed Neatorama as it was, for what it was. My personal opinion is the site would be better off without it.
Neatorama is my favorite blog and the UQ is gilding the lily.
Sadly, with all of the drivel leaking out of the queue bot, I've definitely noticed It's no longer on that shortlist. There is just so much crap to sift through.
I also think that one of the hallmarks of a good blog is a high level of user interaction. remember the good ol' days of neatorama? with all the witty bits in the comments section? I haven't seen anywhere near the level of user involvement since the queuebot started up.
I agree with the other users who think the queue should either be scrapped or split into it's own site.
Although, in that eventuality, who would visit the queue site?
But now every morning (since I am in Europe) the blog is full of stuff, of which most is old or not Neatorama-worthy IMHO.
Please Alex, get rid of the queue or at leave it as a seperate section independent of the blog itself.. If you really want to feature a Q-post on the front page, than pick it by hand, not by bot.
Quality over quantity.
Alex let me start posting about a year ago after I had suggested several links which he posted. In exchange for posting regularly, I get a sweet, juicy Neatoramalanche to my blog once a week.
Alex helped me out using Wordpress and detailing Neatorama's stylistic standards. Then I was on my own.
I don't know if Alex had a formal standard for how many links should be submitted before getting an invitation to join, but maybe he should create one -- and set the bar low enough that we have more people posting than the usual six or seven regular posters.
Obviously these would need to be people who understood what is Neat (maybe we need a formal definition that is intentionally refined every three months), how to use Wordpress, what are Neatorama's stylistic standards, and appear to be (by Neatorama standards) mentally well-balanced.
well bless yer little hart and thank yew fer teh grammer leson. I'of always had a problem with me its; it's and its and will trie to be careful with my its' incase yew our readind the comm"its". ;>
\trollish, I know, I and accept responibility for "it".
If you go back, you will find that a large number of the posts made by neatorama were in fact user submitted.
Anyways I have a problem with splitting the queue bot into its own section. If you do that then there will be tons of neatorama-worthy posts that will either have to be double posted from there or ignored in an attempt to keep both sites unique. I would probably never even bother visiting the queue section, but I'm sure some people will. For them double posts would be kind of annoying spam.
I'm all for innovation and experimentation. I applaud you guys for being willing to try new stuff in order to give us a more enjoyable website. But I just don't see this working in any sense. Please switch back, but how about making the "submit a link" button much more pronounced. I'm sure many people who visit neatorama don't even see it in the top right.
The quality of writing in most Queue posts is too poor!
As for the whole iPod thing, I think it's great to reward contributors, but I feel that it works better when we don't know what the prize is, or even when we're going to be rewarded. It would appear to me that people are posting as much as they can, regardless of whether it's really relevant or "neat" just to win the prize, and it's kindof annoying. It makes it less of a reward and more of a contest. I myself have submitted a couple of posts to the Queue, but it was because I found them interesting and wanted to share, not because I wanted the prize. I think it is a problem when those who are posting to win take away any chance that might have existed for those who are posting to share. For me, it kindof goes against the spirit of what Neatorama is. Or was.
Neatness is in the eye of the beholder?
I see two main problems :
- pace : even if the post are high quality, some people seems to be needing sleep
- editorial control : before getting bumped up on the main page, a tough mandatory purgatory seems to be necessary (more work, Alex...)
And at last : a suggested read : "Who Moved My Cheese?" by Spencer Johnson ;p
I do like the increase in volume...but I would say some pretty 'un-Neat' stuff has been getting through a bit...see: 100 depressing photos of Detroit homes. I would just like to see a bit more editing.
Other than that, I think a lot of the posts have fit into the site well.
the upcoming queue should be it's own section of the site, not something which adds content by itself to the front page. I'm thinking a "Top # of the day/week/etc" side bar where the top voted things in the queue are shown in small format, list-like with tiny icons of included pictures. It could just be an extension/transformation of the already existing "write your own neatorama post" sidebar.
Having it as a voted sidebar would still give people the exposure and immediate gratification they desire, and add the whole web 2.0 vibe, but still leave the essence of neatorama's front page intact.
I've noticed a huge difference between the stuff I submitted and wrote as compared to when Alex edits it and posts it. Plain and simple I am not that great of a writer.