http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/4557794/Christian- nurse-row-now-teachers-could-be-disciplined-for-discussing-religion.ht ml

I see from your blog that you’re Christian. How, then, can you not see that offering prayer is the same as announcing that you have religious views? You have the right to believe whatever you want but no-one has the right (particularly in a professional setting where the rules are clear and you’ve been complained about before) to bring religion up where it’s not appropriate and may not be wanted. No-one cares that she is Baptist, they care that she has repeatedly engaged in religious activities – or offered such – and that could be offensive to patients. Remember, it’s not about her views on the matter, it’s about her patients.

If you can’t see the potential “harm or foul” in her actions then you are intolerant and insular in your thinking. Atheists may not be in the majority, but we have rights too.

And asking to pray for a patient is a far cry from pushing her religion on her patient.

I would also, however, have thought it inappropriate, for various reasons that other people have already elucidated… but I’d have considered it pretty trivial and let it go without complaint.

After eight years of the Bush administration, eight years of pushy, bullying Christians doing everything possible to insert their irrational and nonsensical beliefs into my government’s workings, into State and Federal law, into our courtrooms, our classrooms, and our bedrooms, I have become entirely intolerant of Christianity. If this was a different kind of world, I would be burning down churches on a daily basis at this point. I will not tolerate even a hint of this inane, insane, irrational, infantile, ignorant, idiotic belief system in any place where it does not explicitly belong, and I urge other sane, rational folk to be similarly on guard.

The intolerance of Christians has destroyed my tolerance for Christianity. The great majority of these deluded fools are dangerously violent, war-mongering, tyrannical, un-American, Constitution-hating, bullying jerks who are looking forward to the end of the world. There should be no place for their nutjob eschatonic fantasies in healthcare just as there should be no place for it in government, education, the judicial system, etc.

That’s not offensive; it’s logical and reasoned. If it diminishes God, that’s just your interpretation. Atheists have to treat all imaginary beings the same, or else we’d be hypocrites.

Saying something like “all Christians are evil” or “atheists are perverts” would be offensive. Get some perspective. Remember that virtually every major religion oppresses some group – blacks, gays, women, atheists – either actively or passively. In the grand scheme of things, religious groups have done far more harm than any concerted atheistic effort ever has.

The thing that really bothers me here is the unabashed, and offensive things hurled at religious folk. Dale said “Accept that some people don’t believe in magical trolls, fairies, zombies or gods and we don’t want it forced upon us even peripherally by religious sheep”. I perfectly accept the fact that some people don’t believe in any of that stuff but it should be obvious that you are comparing believing in god to something like magical trolls, that is offensive! I hear of atheist and the like constantly getting offended by anything remotely religious while if something happens the other way around hardly anything is said.
If people could just be a little less sensitive and more polite and considerate to each other than these sorts of things should never show up in the news. I don’t want to shove my views on anyone and I have never believed that was right. And don’t give me that crap about this being the internets, so throw out your manners. What is this world coming to. I know it won’t do anything to ask people to be civil, it won’t happen. But if you start spewing this out, it becomes an excuse that you can say whatever you want without any responsibility whatsoever.

The patient complained to the trust.

If she had asked for a prayer and the nurse had agreed there would be no complaint. That would be patient-centered care.

The patient expected the nurse to treat a leg wound…not to provide spiritual support.

I can imagine a patient thinking that maybe the nurse knows something about their prognosis that they don’t…’you need my prayers with your condition’.

Mrs Petrie said: “My concern is for the person as a whole, not just their health.”

This is what bothers me about some religious folks– the implication that there is something missing from my life, that I’m morally lacking, and that I will burn in hell when I die, because I don’t share their faith.

I thought at first that it was nice of her to care about her patients enough that she’d keep them in her prayers, but the problem is that very religious people often end up hitting you with a backhanded insult. I don’t care what you believe in, but when you imply that I am a lesser person than you because I don’t believe in the same things, that’s a problem.

Anyway, as far as the exchange between nurse and patient here, it sounded harmless, but still, she should be more professional and leave her personal beliefs at home.

If I found out my doctor was very religious, I would no longer feel comfortable discussing certain things with him that might go against, say the Catholic view that premarital sex is a sin. It would certainly affect my comfort level, and therefore my level of care.

I agree, freedom of religion should also include freedom FROM religion.

@Cori: I’d rather political bullsh!t rather than the religious kind

@timcat: spiritual considerations should be made, but I doubt you were ever taught to offer to say Mass for a patient? Thought not.

@D Bozko: way to go bashing Con for being professional

@Amy A: I love how you preach respect and then make a dig at single parents. Classy.

@Marcus: if you were ever in my care and asked for a prayer, I’d gladly call someone who was comfortable doing it with you. However, I’d never presume to project my beliefs on you. Deal?

***********

I think a lot of you are missing the point. If you have a problem with the policies of her employers, then address that. She KNEW the rules and broke them. At least twice. I’m a doctor and an atheist and I can’t turn up for work dressed as Captain Kirk, even if I think it’s appropriate, because I know it’s against the rules.

I reckon most people would be indifferent to her offer or would think it was nice, most would not be upset. But that isn’t the point – some people would be uncomfortable. One man’s meat is another man’s poison. How would you Christians feel if I was about to operate on you and just before you went under anaesthetic I whispered “By the way, would you like me to offer a little incantation to Satan on your behalf? I believe that he’ll help you through this” I’m sure most of you would (quite understandably) find it upsetting. We all have different opinions of religion, some of them negative, which is why it should be kept private in a professional setting.

She HAS NOT been fired and no-one is asking for her to be fired. They’re investigating the complaint, which is appropriate. All of you religious people who feel threatened by this should relax a little and wake up to the fact that atheists are not trying to ban religion – we’re just asking that people don’t shove it in our faces.

The act of praying has nothing to do with being nice to another person. It is a selfish act to beleive they are doing something for someone, asking for help from something that is not there, hoping that cooincidence will be in their favor so they can abolish any insecurities they have. As a nurse being nice is about listening to thier paitents, getting and fluffing pillows and providing help when they need assitance for things they find difficult.

If you offer to pray for someone who does not feel it does anything for them, you are doing nothing for them. I can’t see praying as anything more then that, I mean, if this so called god has a divine plan and everything happens for a reason, does praying actualy sway the course of what will and what won’t happen? What if people pray for 2 different things where there is a conflict of interest, do both prayers phase each other out? Do you know Todd?

It is stupid that this is even a story.

Me, I’d have put it down to being cared for by the medical profession and having a course of appropriate antibiotics, not prayer.

Huh, what do I know, I’m not religious, a nurse or a patient.

No need to slam Con and be intolerant towards other Christians just because they don’t share the same principles as you.

@Amy A.

Asking people to be respectfull on the internet is like attempting to turn a bottle of tomato sauce into a goat. It’s pointless, it won’t happen, and sure it may be cool but it’s just an unrealistic expectation.

I’m actualy surprised it took this long for a flamewar to start on this issue. Given the facts she was told to stop and went against her boss due to her holding her beleifs above her job, had she not been fired this most likley will happen again, and even though the person reciving the care was not offended, it could have a worse consequence the next time. I am sure she won’t have a problem finding new work, there are plenty of faith based businesses out there that will see this and offer to hire her.

However, *if* that’s really all the nurse said then I personally wouldn’t be offended. Maybe a bit annoyed depending on the context, but not really offended. I do understand how someone could be though. What if the patient was Buddhist or Muslim and that started a request that the nurse not pray to a Christian god, which offended the nurse and effected the patient’s care? The nurse is there as a (scientific) medical practitioner, not a nun. She should have prayed silently for her patient in her off-time and not even brought it up unless the patient did first. That is the most neutral and professional course of action, and the one she had been repeatedly advised to follow by her superiors.

As for the prayer card, that seems more like religious solicitation and, IMO, indisputably crosses the line. It also shows the nurse’s repeated attempts to bring her religion into the workplace, which – as Con pointed out – makes me wonder if the standard of care would drop for those who react negatively to her offers of faith.

She should get a formal suspension with the understanding that if it happens again she’s fired without question. If she had just followed her employer’s rules to not broach the subject of religion unless the patient did then all would have been fine.

She asked, the woman said no, so she didn’t do it. No need to liken people that believe in a higher power as “nuts” or “crazy”. THAT is offensive. How about you try being respectful? Or didn’t your single mother teach you that?

The only thing that scares me is that people actually believe in this nonsense.

Then you’re not a very good Christian.

ff : Offering to “pray” for someone’s terminal illness is insulting and belittling.
How about I pop round the corner and murder a virgin in the hopes it makes you feel better.

Yeah, those are exactly the same thing.

If you’re insulted or bothered by someone wanting to pray with you I feel nothing but pity for you. What’s the harm? Is it fear? To not believe is one thing but to have such animosity is beyond my understanding.
The woman said no and that ended it. To want her fired is frightening.

Easy. You wait for the person to approach you about it instead of asking. It should really not be upto the caregiver to offer “magic” healing power, it should be upto the patient to ask for it first. If a nurse asked me in a hospital or at home if I was a caretaker he/she would be out of there faster than a polished snotball a, the boss would hear about it not for my sake but for the sake of future patients.

Asking to pray is not assuming anything. Reason dictates asking in a culture where the majority claim a belief in a higher power.

Being allowed to pray makes no statement as to the recipient’s beliefs. It is a tolerant form of indulgence regardless of Faith or not. It is no worse than saying “I hope you get to feeling better.” Should I have to ask permission to say that, should I be fired?

This is complete nonsense. Makes me wish I had went into Law school instead.

rAmen, indeed.

However, if the nurse was told not to, but did anyway, then her employers are well within their rights to terminate her employment. A doctor or nurse (of any religion or non-religion) must separate personal life from professional life, and she has demonstrated that she won’t.

May you be touched by his noodley appendage… rAmen.

if i am entrusting my health and well being to somebody, i sure as heck don’t want to see them chanting magical incantations

Bill

That’s fine, it’s her choice, but if she decides to make her religious beliefs a higher priority than her job requirements, she can’t really complain if her job suffers as a result. She made the choice herself.

Its like she sat down and started chanting right there.

It would be like being upset if someone said “Do you want me to hang up these windchimes?” or “Do you want me to make a toast to you later tonight?” Either way, its an offer, not a threat, and she said “ok” after asked not to.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/health/2002901053_pray31.html

As an atheist, I probably wouldn’t be offended on multicultural grounds if someone offered to pray for me, but I’d probably be concerned that a nurse is wasting effort on this pointless activity instead of doing something that might actually help.

You see no problem with her actions, but do you recognize that her being fired was correct? I mean, if the employer has said previously that this shit doesn’t fly and she continues doing it it’s really her own fault.

Or at least at the expense of me.

Shes just another self deluded nut job – doesn’t really matter what flavour she is.

How about I pop round the corner and murder a virgin in the hopes it makes you feel better.

Fired.

Its when religious people get get all “up in your business” determining what is right/wrong for OTHER people and thinking for some bizzare reason that religion gives them better morals… thats when I start to have a problem. If the woman was caught with a bong, and the nurse offered to pray for her. Then, the woman should be pretty pissed.

Although, for the record I think saying a prayer to yourself for a person is even that rather offensive to said person. While you aren’t forcing your religion onto said person in an obvious way you’re still including them in your religion by proxy by praying for them. Just as bad in my book. Fine if you believe in the power of prayer, but pray for those that want praying, or at least those who needs praying that you know are within your own religious realm and leave the rest alone.

In my book, she got what she deserved.