What's Wrong With Gun Nuts: Eight-Year-Old Boy Given Uzi and Fatally Shot Self in Head

1. Anthony
   October 27th, 2008 at 11:45 pm

   Youngest Darwin Award?

2. Geekazoid
   October 28th, 2008 at 12:04 am

   Hmmm, could be political, but no presidential candidate mentioned, so this should be fine with the "no politics on neatorama" crowd. At any rate I'm amazed this father could give an interview to the newspaper and describe what happened. I'd be so distraught and hysterical at what happened, and have some form of guilt, that no way would I be able to describe what happened. Further proof that guns have no business or place in the hands of young people, let alone adults.

3. heather
   October 28th, 2008 at 12:16 am

   Don't know why it happened?! How about a father gave his 8-year-old son a freaking UZI that's what happened! It's a Darwin Award alright, but for the father for not knowing any better.

4. Crudely Wrott
   October 28th, 2008 at 12:16 am

   This could have been prevented had one of the adults present simply laid a hand atop the barrel. In this way the barrel could have been prevented from "burning" upwards and back.

   Any child can shoot an Uzi, once properly instructed. In this case, the adults misfired and failed to properly instruct and assist the boy. I'm sure they are keenly aware of this now.

   In this case the deadly agent was not the gun or the child's inexperience; rather, the relaxed attitude of the adults present.

   Guns, like fist-sized rocks and stout sticks, are deadly. People not paying attention are deadlier.

5. Him
   October 28th, 2008 at 12:18 am

   Wow, I sense a suicide from self stupidity coming on for the father.

6. andrew
   October 28th, 2008 at 12:22 am

   heather - I think it still counts. his chance to pass on his genes was greatly reduced.

7. catskill
   October 28th, 2008 at 12:26 am

   I agree with Wrott. The firearms instructor should have been there with his hand ready or even on the weapon to ensure it didnt get away from the kid.

8. ted
   October 28th, 2008 at 12:38 am

   An 8-yr-old in full control of a loaded semi-automatic?

   Negligence, plain and simple. Good thing the kid didn't accidentally kill somebody else, too. That coulda gone way worse than one death.

9. just a guy
   October 28th, 2008 at 12:40 am

   As soon as I saw this post title I thought "Oh Geez! This is going to end up with tons of comments of people arguing" then I though "Also, people saying it's not quite in the spirit of 'neat'orama." (To which I don't disagree. Who doesn't love a good anecdote of 8 year olds accidentally shooting themselves in the head? )

   @ Anthony - not darwin award. One of the requirement of darwin awards is that the candidate has to be 'capeable of sound judgement' which essentially means no kids or serious mental handicaps.
   see:
   http://www.darwinawards.com/rules/rules4.html

10. Reechard
    October 28th, 2008 at 12:41 am

    Well, that's depressing. Say what you will about the stupidity of the father but no one deserves to go through that.

11. James Schend
    October 28th, 2008 at 12:52 am

    It's entirely the fault of the instructor present. He's an *instructor*, the entire point of his job is to teach people how to use guns safely, and yet he signed off on giving an 8-year-old a gun that even full-grown men have trouble handling.

    I don't blame the father in this case; his only crime was assuming the instructor was competent.

12. SenorMysterioso
    October 28th, 2008 at 1:47 am

    :_(

13. Sniperman
    October 28th, 2008 at 2:48 am

    The machine gun shoot* drew hundreds of people from as far away as Maine and Virginia.

    *should be "show" right?

    mistake on the tribune, i think they now officially owe me a Ferrari.

14. Robolasse
    October 28th, 2008 at 2:59 am

    "Any child can shoot an Uzi, once properly instructed."

    That is nice to know. *LOL*

15. Terry
    October 28th, 2008 at 2:59 am

    Sounds like the parents wanted to socialise the kid into a gun nut. "Live by the sword, die by the sword."

16. Peeves
    October 28th, 2008 at 3:02 am

    A small child with an automatic weapon for the first time might need to be backed up by a parent and not 10 feet away from them..if they have to shoot a gun at all. I'm all for teaching your kids gun safety when your family is a gun family but this is just unacceptable. He was EIGHT with an automatic weapon on his own for the first time and you think it's a mystery as to why it happened?? I hope that's the grief talking and not the director of ER medicine talking. Wow.

17. IFZen
    October 28th, 2008 at 3:24 am

    Being born and educated in France I can tell you such a story is completely mad for me.

    First guns are killing machine, especially auto' things like Uzi. So what the hell this things are ramping all around in this country ? Fucking stupid amendement I know. A think oldest than any living body at the moment. Totaly stupid.

    Second, how can somebody put a so deadly thing in his own baby boy hands ? From my point of view it's complete madness.

    Here, if someone would just put the thing in the hands of a boy, even empty of any ammo, people would get crazy at this person, he would be put in jail and his childs would be put away from him.

    US people should understand than from certain points of view they are just as barbarian as afghan talibans.

    Hope your country will step down one day, gently.

18. sbond
    October 28th, 2008 at 4:02 am

    Very un-neat.
    Too many morbid posts from Alex, seriously now. I come here for neat and whimsy, not tragic accidents. Not impressed.

19. Robolasse
    October 28th, 2008 at 4:09 am

    "A small child with an automatic weapon for the first time might need to be backed up by a parent and not 10 feet away from them."

    You americans crack me up.

20. Zakk
    October 28th, 2008 at 4:17 am

    Tragic and stupid. I'd equate this with allowing a child to use a chainsaw unsupervised, but a chainsaw actually has a purpose other than killing.
    If I ever have children they will be taught what to do if they find a firearm, and how to safely handle a rifle. But an uzi? I don't effing think so.

21. Tweeker
    October 28th, 2008 at 4:19 am

    Switzerland many thousands of select fire weapons distributed throughout the country, but we dont hear about such shenanigans there. Its about the attitude.

    Small weapon means more recoil, not less. Recoil is in inverse proportion to weight. M16 and friends are about the easiest to handle common select fire weapon.

    I am opposed to coddling children, but that was stupid. Bear in mind in another eight years that child could have been legally handling a 1,000,000 joule projectile.

22. Skipweasel
    October 28th, 2008 at 4:39 am

    The myth of Switzerland being a safe example of gun ownership is still being trotted out, I see.

    It ain't true. Its murder rate is over twice that of, for example, England. A while ago I looked out the murder by gun rate and that was even higher, comparitively.

    Please - if you're going to defend the indefensible at least play fair and don't make up the data.

23. Terry
    October 28th, 2008 at 4:43 am

    Seems like the gun nut parents were trying to socialise the child into a gun nut too. Poor kid. Another case of "Live by the sword, die by the sword."

24. Tweeker
    October 28th, 2008 at 5:18 am

    Murder isnt an accident.

25. Tim Giachetti
    October 28th, 2008 at 5:31 am

    I've fired this weapon many times so I don't understand the low recoil statement.
    The Uzi is notorious for pulling up and to the left, which means if you're a little boy it'll line itself up for your little head.
    The dad should be charged as should the sponser of this little side show.

26. Peej
    October 28th, 2008 at 5:33 am

    I don't care if the kid had been properly instructed -- an 8 year old doesn't need to have his hands on a death-spraying object. It's a KID -- I've heard that these "kids" are known to have a higher rate of mistakes than "adults", but I suppose that might just be a rumor.

    /likes guns, owns guns, shoots guns

27. Tweeker
    October 28th, 2008 at 5:38 am

    Fair enough though, you are not as likely be shot in the UK, and are perhaps less likely to be murdered entirely. It isnt fair to isolate murder by gun though, people still manage to murder each other without them.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/may/13/ukcrime.boris

    "In fact, the most recent crime survey by the Metropolitan police showed that knife crime has actually dropped by 15.7% over the past two years, from 12,122 to 10,220 incidents.

    Nevertheless, that still amounts to a knife-related incident every 52 minutes. Knife crimes were also four times more prevalent than gun crimes; and the risk of serious injury was more than double than that for gun crime – statistics that will give the London mayor and his newly appointed knife tsar, Ray Lewis, pause for thought. "

    A knife czar?

    Dead is dead, whatever the cause.

    Both countries enforce large black markets, which is the underlying source of much of their crime.

28. Ray
    October 28th, 2008 at 5:58 am

    America. You just don't get it, do you?

29. Clayton
    October 28th, 2008 at 6:02 am

    In other news:

    8 year old allowed into swimming pool and drown...
    Ban swimming pools.
    etc.
    etc.
    ad nauseum

    Dangerous activities warrant supervision, duh.

30. Max Power
    October 28th, 2008 at 6:27 am

    (Only 280 million times to go, people!)

31. Scotchdrnkr
    October 28th, 2008 at 6:28 am

    I've fired Many full auto weapons and in my opinion the Uzi and Mac 10 are extremely hard to handle due to their size. The only other full auto weapon I can remember having problems with is the Glock 18.
    But the Range Marshal should have their head handed to them on a platter for allowing anyone, adult or a kid to fire without them standing there to control the weapon.

32. gtron
    October 28th, 2008 at 6:42 am

    agreed, not a "neat" post -
    I'm having a hard time with not seeing this story, or the one about the guy being dragged behind a truck on the national news right before an election -
    I've fired a Samopol (Czech hybridized semi-automatic) and that kicked a bit first time, but I got used to it - but damn was i focussed while learning how to use it... that this kid's dad is a doctor ("Director of Emergecy medecine"?!) and doesn't have the sense to understand the immediate potential of such a device - that's the scariest part

33. Tracian
    October 28th, 2008 at 7:02 am

    When a whole nation allows for items designed exclusively to kill people to be in the hands of virtually anyone and everyone, the Darwin Award should go collectively to the nation itself.

    As seen from this side of the Ocean, it is very sad to see the decline of what once was the most powerful and respected country in the world - but it is sadder still to see how enthusiastically its people is raving about their own derangement.

34. Pol x
    October 28th, 2008 at 7:44 am

    Firsatly the whole armed america thing is just a monster fuck up.

    But that aside is there no form of regulation?

    Fully Auto is illegal surely?

    And as for allowing an 8 year old access to military grade automatic weapons, you can't get a beer 'til 21 but can spray away with an uzi at eight?

    How anyone can accept this situation as normal only denotes how warped the norm is in the US.

35. Skipweasel
    October 28th, 2008 at 8:08 am

    It's perfectly fair to isolate murder by gun since that's what we're talking about. You specifically mentioned firearms in Switzerland and implied that they don't get misused. They do.

36. UnderpantsGnome
    October 28th, 2008 at 8:16 am

    I can definitely see how this happened. For my bachelor party we shot full auto guns, and if you're not ready for it they can kick like a mule. As a 30 year old who works out the recoil surprised me, I can't imagine an 8 year old trying to handle one.
    Although the range master there did specifically warn us about the uzi.

37. Tweeker
    October 28th, 2008 at 8:17 am

    Full auto is restricted in the US, and no new weapons have been allowed since 1986. The result being that registered transferable weapons are priced in the 5 figure range and are ever rising. They require a license to own.

38. Tweeker
    October 28th, 2008 at 8:19 am

    "It’s perfectly fair to isolate murder by gun since that’s what we’re talking about. You specifically mentioned firearms in Switzerland and implied that they don’t get misused. They do."

    Yes, but if, say, you ban guns, and then have some rise in knife crime, you have not really accomplished as much as claimed.

39. Tweeker
    October 28th, 2008 at 8:22 am

    I specifically mentioned select fire weapons in Switzerland. I would love to hear any information about machine gun crime there, or for that matter accident rates on them in particular.

40. Gail Pink
    October 28th, 2008 at 8:30 am

    Senseless Gun Deaths! Neat!

41. Gauldar
    October 28th, 2008 at 8:31 am

    This dad is a genious. You know all those parents that kill their kid and try to cover it up but eventualy get arrested? Just take your kid to the US for a good gunshow and give your kid an Uzi.

42. gmuller
    October 28th, 2008 at 8:55 am

    Why ban guns? Why not take the ultimately necessary step and just ban people. After all, they're the problem right?

43. Pinkerton
    October 28th, 2008 at 9:03 am

    My wife shot a M16 when she was 3. Of course her father was right behind her, and even had his hand on the barrel because of the weight of the rifle. I do not think guns are unsafe in a safe environment. I agree with everyone that the said the instructor was to blame. he should have been directly behind the kid to help 'instruct' him. The father is to blame for not making sure the situation was safe and that the instructor had a safe environment for his kid.

    This is a very sad story, and one that could have easily been avoided with simple safety precautions.

44. odile
    October 28th, 2008 at 9:10 am

    too bad the boychild didn't shoot his father...

45. Mr. Binky
    October 28th, 2008 at 9:11 am

    Hey, non-American kids, just want to let you know that there are plenty of Americans who don't like guns, or at the very least would know better than to give a 3rd grader a loaded uzi.

    If this happened in your country, I wouldn't make sweeping generalizations. I know that they're lots of fun to make, and you all probably enjoy pissing off people anonymously, but it gets a little tiring somehow.

46. odile
    October 28th, 2008 at 9:11 am

    oh yeah, maybe "crudely wrott" (how true) as well...

47. Mr. Binky
    October 28th, 2008 at 9:46 am

    I wonder how many accidental knife deaths there are...

48. AJ
    October 28th, 2008 at 9:50 am

    A well regulated pre-teen militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of children to keep and fire uzis shall not be infringed.

49. just a guy
    October 28th, 2008 at 9:57 am

    Agreement with Binky. Just because this happened in America doesn't mean: "Oh those wacky Americans!"

    Sheesh.

50. Byrd Brain
    October 28th, 2008 at 10:01 am

    I love how all you non-Americans are making commentary on what is the so-called "norm" in the U.S., as if you even freaking know. You sit there and blather on as if we here in the U.S. eat scrambled eggs and guns for breakfast. Get off your high-horse and stop it with the "we here across the pond" and "we, the superior beings from France" crap, because each and every society has its problems, guns or no guns. Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

51. Edmund Huber
    October 28th, 2008 at 10:20 am

    I live in America, and I am surprised nearly every day by the extent to which my fellow Americans defend gun culture.

52. Rhea
    October 28th, 2008 at 10:31 am

    Let this be a lesson to all the Second Amendment nuts.

53. Adam Stanhope
    October 28th, 2008 at 11:05 am

    Since this happened in my beloved home state of Massachusetts, I hope we can leverage this tragedy into action to accomplish some meaningful anti-gun legislation.

    Operating fully automatic weapons? Not in my state, gun nuts.

54. Skipweasel
    October 28th, 2008 at 11:06 am

    Yes, every society has its problems - but why should anyone be immune from comment? Britain isn't perfect, far from it, and you're welcome to comment about it.

    I'm always rather puzzled by people who deny anyone else the right to criticise them. They're often the same sort who don't like people telling their kids off, claiming that it's their job to do it while failing to actually do so.
    Personally, if someone sees my kids doing something wrong they're welcome to tell them off and I'll generally support them, too.

55. 2ndammentmentliveson
    October 28th, 2008 at 11:14 am

    first of all IFZen you need stay in france this is america and if it was not for americans being able to shoot you would being speaking in german today
    second?gun nutts huh?yes i am a gun nutt,i do not agree with turning a 8 yr old loose with with a full auto but i teach shooting sports to kids i am certifed in several areas and being taught to right way stuff like this does not happen.plus the kids i teach act alot better than your liberial kids i am sure
    next for whoever said guns are only made for killing?target shooting is a hobby that outdates most other sports.maybe you should try it,its alot of fun.

56. Scot-O
    October 28th, 2008 at 11:17 am

    IFZen- please feel free to return to your home country that was freed by us gun-loving, lunatic Americans after you "peace loving, morally superior" French were overrun by the Germans- twice. We will still be here and might consider rescuing you again after you finish handing your country over to the Algerians and Tunisians.

57. eni
    October 28th, 2008 at 11:24 am

    Um. Age restrictions on these kinds of events, anyone??

58. Mossel
    October 28th, 2008 at 11:30 am

    I totally agree with IFZen and Ray.

    "gun fairs" hahaha!
    Such a nice family day out...

    You zany Americans.

59. Bruce
    October 28th, 2008 at 11:35 am

    Rhea -- October 28th, 2008 at 10:31 am: Let this be a lesson to all the Second Amendment nuts.

    That is a very disturbing line of thinking. If we start throwing out parts of the Bill of Rights because we find them uncomfortable or distasteful, where we do stop?

60. Geekazoid
    October 28th, 2008 at 11:44 am

    I love the outrage expressed here by some, towards people from other countries that "dare" criticize or point out the less than savory aspects of American culture and society.

    No doubt these very same people have no qualms about criticizing and generalizing the culture, customs, government, and religion of other countries. Silly double standards.

    American culture is based on violence and it is a gun culture sadly. Little children or kids shooting guns is indicative of a greater problem in our society. I don't care how it's done, on a range or on the streets.

61. Dixon
    October 28th, 2008 at 11:47 am

    Isn't this what guns are for? killing people.

    I can't believe the stupidity of anyone that would let children handle guns, why not give them crack cocaine and a pipe too, perhaps they don't because that would be irresponsible and dangerous.

62. fluff
    October 28th, 2008 at 11:48 am

    "It ain’t true. Its murder rate is over twice that of, for example, England. A while ago I looked out the murder by gun rate and that was even higher, comparitively."

    Stop telling completely BS already.

63. Byrd Brain
    October 28th, 2008 at 11:49 am

    Skipweasel, constructive criticism is fine and welcome. However, the comments on this site are not that. I take particular umbrage at foreigners that presume to know what the "typical American" (there is no such thing, BTW) thinks and feels about guns (or any issue for that matter). You stand up for people's rights to speak their mind (I call it shooting their mouths off in this case) and I can respect that. Do you also stand up for and respect their right to make ignorant accusations based on stereotypes? Do we really want to foster that sort of environment? Usually, those who are against gun ownership are against ugly stereotyping as well. Just something to think about.

    BTW, butting into people's lives as far as parenting is concerned is a good way to get hurt. Kids with issues usually have parents with issues (hell, they might even have a gun!).
    Furthermore, Even the best parents can have kids that act up. As in the case with this gun-related incident, when you are seeing a kid throw a tantrum at the store you are seeing a microcosm of that family's life (this gun incident is a microcosm of American life) and may or may not be indicative of thief lives as a whole. The bottom line is, you don’t know the history and you don’t know what the situation is. For you, a stranger who is completely ignorant and uninformed as to what is going on, to start handing out criticism or advise is unhelpful and completely out of line in my opinion. Yeah, there are just poorly raised children out there, but do you REALLY think that your two cents is going to change that? Don’t be so naïve. The solution is much, MUCH more complex than that. Kind of like the solution that Americans should just "ban guns" is too simplistic for that problem.

64. kid_icarus
    October 28th, 2008 at 11:50 am

    not sure if i agree with the nuts being added after everything. i support the second amendment, does that make me a nut? i don't think so. and yes, that means i believe that people should be able to own guns. i also don't think that makes me a nut. i'm not crazy, the only guns i own are an 1861 springfield rifle and a reproduction 1853 enfield rifle from when i used to reenact the civil war. do i want an uzi, glock, m-16? not unless there is a zombie uprising...and how likely is that? although there are some weapons i have always wanted....more for a collection than any other reason.

65. Scotchdrnkr
    October 28th, 2008 at 11:52 am

    Oh and for all you that don't know. To own Fully automatic weapons in the GOOD OLD USA requires special Licenses & permits. Which requires a VERY thorough background check. You also have to have lots of money to own any of these types of fire arms. The application tax/fee is a nonrefundable $200 just to file the application. And most Full Auto weapons start in the price range of $2000 each. Then you have the cost of ammo which adds up really quick when you shoot full autos. And insurance riders to protect your investment. So the average Joe in the USA doesn't own these weapons. Only very serious collectors do.
    Despite what most foreigners seem to think of gun owners in the USA. The majority of us owners are very responsible with our weapons.
    OH and in case you've missed it. Just a couple of months ago the US Supreme court ruled that the 2nd amendment did protect our right to own firearms.

66. Mossel
    October 28th, 2008 at 12:08 pm

    Personally,
    I allways wanted a Mil Mi-24 "Hind" gunship...

    ButI also think it's a VERY good idea for the law not to allow me to have one, or any other nutcase like me.

    When are you ppl gonna allow live handgranates in kindergarten?

    not even being that sarcastic there, to me its about the same thing as kids on gunfairs...

67. Skipweasel
    October 28th, 2008 at 12:18 pm

    I'm not talking about joining in if the parents are there. I'm talking about seeing a kid drop a bit of litter and handing it to them along with "There's a bin over there, you might care to use it."

    Were either of my two to do anything when I'm not there I'd be glad if another adult dealt with it. I'm not always there, I don't follow my kids around slavishly, they're given considerable freedom but are expected to behave properly.

    Your view is that no one should ever deal with a problem because they don't "own" it. Daft, in my view. What if I see one kid beating up another? You want me to walk past? If one of mine's getting thumped I'd like someone nearby to at least break it up.

68. Byrd Brain
    October 28th, 2008 at 12:37 pm

    Skip, no I agree with you there. You just didn't clarify that the offending child was without adult supervision. Yeah, if my kid is acting inappropriately, and I'm not there, yes- intervene. Kids litter in my area all the time in my area (children of foreigners, where its okay to litter in that culture and it also glorifies gun use) and you bet I set them straight. I think we're on the same page here. You make an interesting point on problem "ownership" as you put it. I believe that those who own the problem should take care of it. A spoiled brat, as much as I'd like to give the parent a piece of my mind, is not my problem. They start harming my child and then it is. I think that gun-related tragedies are still too much of other people's problems for there to be enough public will to change the status quo. This incident will cause some momentary outrage but I think the gun debate in America will remain unchaged.

69. Mr. Binky
    October 28th, 2008 at 12:40 pm

    1) I'm not saying don't criticize America. I'm saying don't generalize/stereotype Americans.

    2) Most guns are made for killing people, which I am typically against. Do you go moose hunting with an uzi?

70. KC
    October 28th, 2008 at 12:43 pm

    Re: comment #2 (Geekazoid) - Your logic is flawless. Here's some further proof that cars have no place in the hands of young people, let alone adults:

    http://your4state.com/content/fulltext/?cid=36661

    ...or maybe we should just accept that the price of freedom is that accidents happen, and that when each of us steps off the curb, we're not guaranteed to make it to the other side of the street?

71. Hans_von_wolfensteinn
    October 28th, 2008 at 1:28 pm

    This is a tragic story. I don't want to argue about gun control and regulation. I just want to thank KC, Mr. Binky, byrd brain, kid_icarus, and scotchdrnkr for standing up against some un-called for stereotyping and ignorant generalizations. I am proud to be an American and I am tired of hearing some of the crap some foreigners spew out about the US. I support the second ammendment and think that people need to be responsible for that power and freedom that we are blessed to have. If only a little more common sense was used.

72. Skipweasel
    October 28th, 2008 at 2:38 pm

    I wouldn't like anyone to think I was stereotyping Americans - my closest American friend is a Quaker!

73. Neatoramawontsendmeapassword
    October 28th, 2008 at 3:22 pm

    What is an Uzi for, if not for killing other human beings? Why would anyone let a child handle one?

74. HugsNotDrugs
    October 28th, 2008 at 3:23 pm

    KC makes a fantastic point about relative dangers and how we perceive them.
    Has anyone here read the book Freakonomics? One of the main themes of the book is that we perceive relative dangers without full perspective. The example from the book says that if you have a swimming pool and a handgun, the swimming pool is 100 times more likely to kill your child, yet society clearly doesn't prioritize according to the facts.

    This, of course, isn't to say that society should ban swimming pools, or that handguns be available to every man, woman, and child. Rather, we need to understand the relative costs associated with everything and separate emotion from understanding.

    Society's misunderstanding of the relative dangers of swimming pools and handguns is a testament to the fragility of freedom. The fact that accidents such as this one, however extremely graphic, seemingly unnecessary, and tragically preventable, automatically sway public opinion toward the banning of guns, and therefore the restriction of libertarian freedom, is the real tragedy.

75. Skipweasel
    October 28th, 2008 at 3:44 pm

    Sure, swimming pools are hazardous, but simply comparing direct risk to risk figures fails to take any account of utility. Life has risk associated with it; Levitt's broader point in Freakonomics was that cost/benefit isn't properly considered, not that absolute risk isn't understood. It's the failure to balance cost against benefit which distorts perceptions.

    Swimming pools are useful, and besides, they quite possibly save a considerable number of lives in a year through healthy exercise.
    Privately held machine guns serve no useful purpose.

76. CheeseDuck
    October 28th, 2008 at 3:48 pm

    Er. What...? I didn't even realize 8-year-olds were allowed to handle real guns. Let alone a fucking automatic.

77. Answer to it all
    October 28th, 2008 at 3:49 pm

    Please, for the sake of the children and the future of the world we need to MAKE GUNS ILLEGAL! It's the perfect answer, look how well it's worked for other problems like rape, burglary, incest, robbery, assault, speeding, embezzling, trying to pay for more than 10 items in the "10 items or less" line, drunk driving, mail fraud, murder, traveling in the NBA, kidnapping, pedophilia, arson, hacking your neighbor to bits with a machete, and the use, sale, and manufacture of illicit drugs. Remember kids, banning something means the problem goes away!

78. HugsNotDrugs
    October 28th, 2008 at 4:27 pm

    Skipweasel, you're absolutely right about Levitt's broader point (and I stress the word broader, since it isn't mutually exclusive with the one I presented). I would caution you to evaluate utility carefully, however, since it is subjective. The reason gun nuts, as they have been labeled, so adamantly defend gun ownership is because they value it so highly. Hunting, self defense, the economy of the gun industry, and the enjoyment of guns in general are all utilities of gun ownership.

    Privately held machines guns don't have as much utility for their risk as other, less dangerous guns (which I why I don't have a problem with the strict laws against them), but they do have some utility.

79. Tracian
    October 28th, 2008 at 6:42 pm

    I am more and more amazed by the lunacy of several (most?) comments here. Since I happily live much farther from the United States than any ballistic range, I strongly endorse the free sale of firearms to every American, without any restraint whatsoever - nay, the obligation to bear them.

    Maybe when the carnage will be over, real grownups without boom/bang fetishes will be able to repopulate your otherwise interesting piece of land.

80. James Schend
    October 28th, 2008 at 11:24 pm

    I have no problem with people who want to control guns, as long as they do it the correct way: amend the Constitution. Stop all this BS inching slowly, one law by another, towards banning firearms-- if you're going to do it, just DO it.

    That said, as long as the Second Amendment stands, I support it entirely. Frankly, I don't care if firearms are banned or not, but people trying to circumvent the Constitution through dubious "interpretations" really piss me off. As someone posted above, if you can circumvent one Amendment, what stops you from circumventing more at a whim? Like it or not, the Second Amendment says I can go out and buy a gun, and if you want to remove that right from me, you need to amend the Constitution. Period.

    BTW, stop blaming the dad in this case. Read more articles than the one Neatorama posted (which is heavily biased): there was a instructor present.

81. ted
    October 29th, 2008 at 6:47 am

    Guns vs swimming pools? Perhaps more children will die in swimming pools because more children use swimming pools. If there were as many children who had access to guns, perhaps the number of deaths by gunshot would increase.

    The stupidest idea was to have live ammo at a gun show, and to allow anyone without a licence to fire that gun.

82. Scotchdrnkr
    October 29th, 2008 at 7:41 am

    This incident did not happen at your typical gun show where you can go to legally purchase a gun or ammo with proper paper work.
    This was at a Licensed shooting Range. With a Range master present but not doing his job in this case.

    Without knowing how many shooting lanes were open at one time I can't completely blame the Range Master. But there should have been some one at each lane responsible for that particular lane.
    The Range Master is the Boss of all lanes then there should be a manager at each lane. Especially when its an Open to the Public shoot.

    I don't know about you but if I was going to loan a piece of equipment, worth 1000s of dollars, of any type to someone I didn't know. I would be standing there making sure they used it properly and safely.

    Notice in the article that none of the people that where supposed to be in charge of the show were talking. The gun ranges Insurance company & Lawyers told them to keep their mouths shut except to official investigation personnel.
    You can Bet there is a Lawyer along with the anti-gun crowd bitting at the bit on this one.

83. HugsNotDrugs
    October 29th, 2008 at 11:47 am

    Ted,
    I'm afraid you misunderstood the statistic. You're absolutely right that more guns would mean more deaths. However, it's not about "more people die from swimming pools because there are more swimming pools out there." The point is how risky it is for a family to own either one based on how likely each is to be dangerous. On average, it's always 100 times safer to own a handgun.

84. Big Daddy Sniper
    October 29th, 2008 at 12:55 pm

    I am a so-called "Gun Nut", I own approximately 70 guns and I also have 2 kids that respect guns very much. To let an 8 year old hold or shoot any gun that is capable of firing multiple rounds (i.e. automatic or semi automatic) is just plain ignorant. I own semi automatic guns and if either of my children (ages 9 and 13) wanted to shoot them it would be using them as a single shot.
    I hate to say it, but the parent would be considered the most ignorant for putting his child in harm's way like that.
    Shame on him, thinking it was cool to see his 8 year old shoot an Uzi!!!
    this story brings a tear to my eye, for the kid, for the family and most of all for all the gun owners who are responsible with their weapons....

85. xlr8
    October 29th, 2008 at 2:23 pm

    So, where are the pictures daddy took? ^^

86. dogrun81
    October 29th, 2008 at 2:25 pm

    It's funny to read the Europeans ripping on the US. Pure jealosy. (Who saved your butts in the world wars?)

87. Noelegy
    October 29th, 2008 at 3:03 pm

    And what nobody seems to understand is that you can pass laws banning all kinds of firearms, from Uzis to BB guns, and it still WILL NOT STOP those who really want to get a gun and use a gun. All the laws in place at the time of Columbine, for example, did not stop the shooters from carrying out their plan, because THEY WERE LAWBREAKERS. Sorry for the shouting, but people seem to believe that if there's a law against something, everyone will follow the law! How nice that would be, but it just does not happen.

    That having been said, this is not the fault of the gun, or the gun's availability, or even dare I say the gun's presence in the hand of a child (which I can't find any justification for, either). It is the responsibility of the adults present, who should have known better.

    For example, you can die a painful death if you choose to drink drain cleaner. Yet drain cleaner is perfectly legal and available almost anywhere. But it comes with a warning on it, which very small children would not be able to read, just see the pretty colors. Therefore, it's up to the ADULT to keep the drain cleaner away from children, not up to lawmakers to make drain cleaner unavailable for everyone because it's possible to die from drinking it.

88. Mottley
    October 29th, 2008 at 3:05 pm

    Tragic as this may be - accidents happen.
    If people want to play with guns, have a swim, cross the road, climb a mountain, smoke cigarettes or dance with the devil in the pale moonlight then that is up to them. I think that's called "choice".
    My honest (but entirely biased by media) opinion is that the US is a truly f*cked up place. Sadly my own dear UK is well & truly on the same path. Guns are not the cause of this. Are there not plenty of countries out there (eg Switzerland) where it is customary for every household to own a gun?
    It's not the gun that scares me but the idiot holding it. If people want to go to gun shows, shooting ranges or the like then good luck to them and I will steer well clear.
    More gun control? Yes.
    Ban guns completely? Cannot see a valid argument for it.

89. Mottley
    October 29th, 2008 at 3:23 pm

    Another thing!

    To all those...
    "You'd all be speaking German right now - I didn't see you complaining when we bailed you out with our guns in the two world wars"
    ...posters. ahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!

    I think we can draw a line between gun laws for civilians and gun laws for the military!

    I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting sending the troops off to Iraq with a few sticks, a handful of rocks and a toothpick.

    By the way - most of us are of course thankful for your part in those wars, however I doubt your soldiers died fighting in them so that idiots like you could then rub the fact in the faces of your so-called "friends".

    Morons like you give your country a bad name.

90. Skipweasel
    October 29th, 2008 at 3:55 pm

    Mottley - yes, guns are common in Switzerland, but so are shootings.

91. Guy
    October 29th, 2008 at 4:04 pm

    "Since this happened in my beloved home state of Massachusetts, I hope we can leverage this tragedy into action to accomplish some meaningful anti-gun legislation."

    Your state already has some of the most draconian gun regs in the nation. Doesn't this show that they don't work?

    "Operating fully automatic weapons? Not in my state, gun nuts."

    I wouldn't set foot in your socialist, gunophobic "utopia" if you paid me.

92. Mottley
    October 29th, 2008 at 5:40 pm

    You know Skipweasel - I was going to disagree.

    I was going to dig up a load of articles that stated more or less:

    "Switzerland has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world, coupled with one of the lowest rates of gun-related deaths." (look - I can quote wikipedia!)

    But it turns out that recently this has changed:

    "in 2005, 48 people were murdered by gunfire in Switzerland - about the same number as in England and Wales, which have a population seven times as large. According to the International Action Network on Small Arms, an anti-gun organisation based in the UK, 6.2 people died of bullet wounds in Switzerland in 2005 per 100,000 of population, second only to the US figure of 9.42"

    So I guess it comes down to:

    1) Do you believe the mere presence of a gun caused these murders? Or rather - would the absence of a gun have prevented these murders?

    2) Does it matter anyway? If a man runs down his wife in a car do we ban all cars? If a youth stabs another do we ban all knives?

    Hang ON - what the f*ck am I talking about? Of COURSE we ban knives, or at least carrying them in public.

    I apologise - I was about to indulge in reductio ad absurdum but now I've changed my mind.

    Guns were designed for killing and if you f*ck about with them someone will get hurt.

    Geeez you f*cking yank gunnuts are CRAZY

93. Mottley
    October 29th, 2008 at 6:08 pm

    I was about to stand by my main point that high gun-availability does not relate to high murder-rates.
    My argument was to be that violence in western society is a far more complex thing to understand.
    I was then going to blame TV and quote the examples of Bhutan and St Helena,

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/tv_and_radio/3812275.stm

    but these have been debunked.

    So why the hell are we all running around killing each other?

    Turns out we're not - the glass is half-full after all:

    http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/pinker07/pinker07_index.html

    I'm going to stop watching the news and spamming forums with off-topic rants.

    I'm off to buy a gun and watch some wrestling.

94. Moshe
    October 29th, 2008 at 8:38 pm

    So Charles Bizilj is the kid's father AND director of emergency medicine at Johnson Memorial Hospital?

    Quite the luck of the draw.

95. Mainer/Alaskan
    October 29th, 2008 at 10:08 pm

    Amazing intellect from "across the pond?.

    1. We already had the discussion about what the differences were going to be between the two continents. I recollect, a bit more than 200 years ago. I don't think you want to rehash it, now or ever.

    2. You know nothing about firearms, or anyone you self-righteously call a "gun nut". Yet, you come here and about spewing your foolishness as though you were some kind of expert on society, firearms, or law.

    3. You display an amazing amount of arrogance, but I don't find that surprising at all.

    4. The second amendment is not about hunting, it's about independence. That is also something most of you know nothing about.

    5. Where I live, there are few organized police departments. Both places. Alaska requires no permit to carry a firearm, concealed or in the open. People here understand that criminals, thieves, and murders do not care about laws. Laws are to address crimes. When you take a harmless act, having a gun, and elevate it to a crime to prevent crime, you sink to the lowest level of stupidity.

    6. If you're happy living where you are at the whim and mercy of any hood who decides he doesn't care about the law, more power to you. Really, that's your right. You do not have a right to extend that to where I live.

    7. "Repeal the second amendment"? Sure, go ahead if you can. It won't make a lick of difference. The right preceded the constitution, and the supreme court and the writers of the Bill of Rights said so. So what? An illegal law is no more to be obeyed than an illegal order.

    8. There are, read this well and I will write slowly, eighty million firearms owners in the United States. Eighty million people armed and safe, but for the rare exceptions.

    9. We own, some debate over the number, between 250 and 750 MILLION firearms.

    10. Guns were made to fire a bullet out the end of the barrel. Hammers were built to pound nails. Either can be used to kill people. Only an idiot would bring a hammer to a gun fight. Only a suicidal idiot would bring a knife to a gun fight. I'll take my chances with a gun.

    11. I am a former law enforcement officer. Returned to college at 30 to pursue a graduate degree in physical therapy. I'd place my qualifications and intelligence against any of you morons, in any debate anywhere, anytime. And I'd beat you like a drum in front of any audience.

    12. Emotional, knee jerk, and irrational arguments might appeal to people who have little self control or brains. It's better for the world that you people don't like or own guns. Leave those of us with some brains and self control alone. We're not like you, obviously.

96. Crudely Wrott
    October 29th, 2008 at 11:33 pm

    @Mainer/Alaskan:

    Thank you for concisely stating the background that I relied on in making my earlier post (Oct. 28, 12:16 am).

    It is not the gun, or the fact that it kills easily, that is at issue. The issue is personal responsibility. This sense of civic duty prevents gun owners from shooting their neighbors in precisely the same way that it prevents Little League players from attacking each other with baseball bats.

    @those commenters who are unfamiliar with the handling and operation of firearms, why aren't you frothing at your mouths about bows, arrows and atlatls? Or steak knives?

    A question for those who do not live in America but excoriate our freedom to own and use firearms: What is the murder weapon of choice in your country? Why haven't you done something about that weapon, like making them go away by passing a law?

97. Byrd Brain
    October 30th, 2008 at 10:17 am

    Hmm... let's look at a recent news report:

    "SEOUL, Oct. 21 (UPI) -- Six people were killed in a Seoul fire allegedly set by a man on a knifing rampage, police said."

    Zany Koreans, they should ban fire and knives. This one man's behavior is indicative of the thoughts and beliefs of an entire nation of over 49 million. They are all fire and knife nuts over there because they don't make laws to ban that which can possibly kill them if in the wrong hands. I can't believe how stupid they ALL are. Once you put fire or a knife in a Korean's hand, they just start killing indiscriminately and uncontrollably. Unbelievable.

    I think I've made my point quite well. My logic is flawless, really. In fact, I think you could apply this line of reasoning to guns as well and it would sound completely sane. No, really.

98. Dixon
    October 31st, 2008 at 6:10 am

    I haven't heard a good argument or reasoning for keeping guns, apart from it's 'your right' or 'it's in the constitution', really what is the point?

    Do you really feel safer having them? rather than protecting yourselves you're more likely to put yourself in danger as the burglar (or whatever) is going to assume you've got a gun and take one himself, he's got the element of surprise on you and will likely shoot first.

    As I live in England I'm very very unlikely to be a victim of gun crime or a gun accident. Nearly everyone that is killed by guns here are involved in the shady underground criminal business and unfortunately the odd innocent person gets caught in the crossfire.

99. Sabersaw Sammy
    November 1st, 2008 at 5:37 pm

    That's so badass... I wonder if when he was shooting himself his nerves kept the trigger squeezed and the gun was still firing like that scene in Predator when Carl Weathers got his arm cut off and his gun was still firing... awesome movie! wooooooooooooooo!!

    Actually, let me retract my statement of badassness, it was a bit premature. I just got all pumped about this story.

    Now what would've been badass if the zombie kid turned to the crowd with the trigger pegged, mowing down people and it caused this huge panic and everyone was grabbing whatever guns were available and returned fire... smoke, explosion, mayhem, people getting trampled... kickass!

100. screwantigunners
     December 3rd, 2008 at 10:23 pm

     wow what a bunch of anti-gun douche bags. People are so incredibly stupid. If you look at the statistics of children who are shot with guns the numbers seem staggering. What most don't realize is that the statistics are based on minors under the age of 18. Which encompases all the no count gang bangers in america. I live in a relitively large city in the Southern United Sates where every home has multiple guns and gun crime is non-existent

     If people want to see a real reduction in crimes and murders in the United States then they should be pushing to have harsher sentences on gang members and related crime. But that will never happen, because the police and politicians don't have the balls to actually confront the problems. Instead they place the blame on a inanimate object, and try to take away good innocent peoples only line of defense against the scum of society.

     Bottom line guns defend innocent people who have the guts to own and properly use them.

     Maybe one day you anti-gun people will be getting robbed at knife point and one of us good hearted legal gun owners will be there to defend you ungreatful innocent bast@rds. Or perhaps you would just rather wait till the police get there pick up your pieces.

     People keep saying how robbers and thieves will have the upper hand in a armed conflict. I beg to differ. As a armed Licensed Concealed weapons carrier you have the element of surprise. Just give the perp your money and Put a couple bullets in his back when he runs off.

     There will always be people getting murdered. It's been that way forever and always will be. I personally would rather take a quick shot to the vitals than be hacked up with a knife or have my head crushed with a hammer.

     You people across the pond I understand. You have always been a bunch of spineless sheeple and I expect such. Your government has stripped you of the right to defend yourselves, but you Americans on here saying how guns are evil need to be banned seriously need to go learn some appreciation for the effort our fore fathers put into our Constitution.

     What happened to that kid was an absolute trajedy and is fully the fault of the people operating the shooting range. There should definitely be a age requirement to shoot fully automatic weapons.

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