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	<title>Comments on: Was It Self Defense or Murder?</title>
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	<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2008/07/04/was-it-self-defense-or-murder/</link>
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		<title>By: software development london</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2008/07/04/was-it-self-defense-or-murder/comment-page-5/#comment-1840844</link>
		<dc:creator>software development london</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Aug 2009 16:53:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/?p=17164#comment-1840844</guid>
		<description>Hmmm, difficult one! I dont agree with killing people anyway!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm, difficult one! I dont agree with killing people anyway!</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. John R. Wright</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2008/07/04/was-it-self-defense-or-murder/comment-page-4/#comment-1374154</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. John R. Wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:44:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/?p=17164#comment-1374154</guid>
		<description>My grandson was shot to death, unarmed (neither gun nor knife nor club) out in Oklahoma, in mid-December of 2007.  Although this happened just five days before his court date as a prosecution witness, the District Attorney - a woman - called it self defense as defined under the Oklahoma Castle Law (Statute 1289.25)!  The DA refuses to consider that the one who killed my grandson also stalked him at his own home beforehand, and there are eyewitnesses who can testify about those situations.  The killer opened the door to my grandson.  Moreover, the Oklahoma law is not supposed to cover cases where a &quot;child or grandchild&quot; is in the home where the shooting took place, and that was the exact situation - my grandson&#039;s own one year old daughter was present when he was shot (she had to be pulled off of his dying body!).  This was just ignored.  After reviewing the transcripts in those drug-related trials that my grandson was to testify in, I can see that one of the defendants benefited from his death - he&#039;ll probably get off.  Put this in the record of the possible ways for the defense laws to be misapplied: lawyers, including district attorneys, will find ways to pervert them.  Our loss of a grandson is just one example of how the poorly written and thought out &quot;Castle Laws&quot; will fail, and this kind of thing plays right into the hands of the anti-gun proponents.  

I&#039;m not some wild-eyed liberal, and I even have a carry permit.  I grew up in Arkansas, where I hunted small game from a very young age.  I also served a military tour of duty, and I still practice to keep my marksmanship at an acceptable level.  But having a gun should not be an excuse to go looking for a fight.  As for my reaction to all of this, I prefer the original laws, and an assailant will have to break my door down or crash through a window before I start shooting.  And I might die for hesitating, but I intend to voice a warning before I pull the trigger.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My grandson was shot to death, unarmed (neither gun nor knife nor club) out in Oklahoma, in mid-December of 2007.  Although this happened just five days before his court date as a prosecution witness, the District Attorney - a woman - called it self defense as defined under the Oklahoma Castle Law (Statute 1289.25)!  The DA refuses to consider that the one who killed my grandson also stalked him at his own home beforehand, and there are eyewitnesses who can testify about those situations.  The killer opened the door to my grandson.  Moreover, the Oklahoma law is not supposed to cover cases where a "child or grandchild" is in the home where the shooting took place, and that was the exact situation - my grandson's own one year old daughter was present when he was shot (she had to be pulled off of his dying body!).  This was just ignored.  After reviewing the transcripts in those drug-related trials that my grandson was to testify in, I can see that one of the defendants benefited from his death - he'll probably get off.  Put this in the record of the possible ways for the defense laws to be misapplied: lawyers, including district attorneys, will find ways to pervert them.  Our loss of a grandson is just one example of how the poorly written and thought out "Castle Laws" will fail, and this kind of thing plays right into the hands of the anti-gun proponents.  </p>
<p>I'm not some wild-eyed liberal, and I even have a carry permit.  I grew up in Arkansas, where I hunted small game from a very young age.  I also served a military tour of duty, and I still practice to keep my marksmanship at an acceptable level.  But having a gun should not be an excuse to go looking for a fight.  As for my reaction to all of this, I prefer the original laws, and an assailant will have to break my door down or crash through a window before I start shooting.  And I might die for hesitating, but I intend to voice a warning before I pull the trigger.</p>
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		<title>By: BUBBAJOE</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2008/07/04/was-it-self-defense-or-murder/comment-page-4/#comment-1344425</link>
		<dc:creator>BUBBAJOE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 20:49:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/?p=17164#comment-1344425</guid>
		<description>WAY TO GO JOE!!! thats what you get for being a scumbag criminal and taking what is not yours. its just too bad he didnt get a good headshot or anything in. i would love mr. horn to live next to me so i new my belongings would be safe even when i wasnt howm. if there were more people like him we would have a lot less criminals in the world. keep it up joe!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WAY TO GO JOE!!! thats what you get for being a scumbag criminal and taking what is not yours. its just too bad he didnt get a good headshot or anything in. i would love mr. horn to live next to me so i new my belongings would be safe even when i wasnt howm. if there were more people like him we would have a lot less criminals in the world. keep it up joe!</p>
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		<title>By: Hektor</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2008/07/04/was-it-self-defense-or-murder/comment-page-4/#comment-1315669</link>
		<dc:creator>Hektor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Dec 2008 07:03:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/?p=17164#comment-1315669</guid>
		<description>Joe Horn did the right thing. The creatures calling him &quot;murderer&quot; are pathetic. The burglars first broke into his neighbors and Horn did get them in the act and I think they were even on his premises, when they got think. 

&quot;Property isn&#039;t worth killing for&quot;, says who? The crooks obviously didn&#039;t think &quot;property isn&#039;t worth getting killed for.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe Horn did the right thing. The creatures calling him "murderer" are pathetic. The burglars first broke into his neighbors and Horn did get them in the act and I think they were even on his premises, when they got think. </p>
<p>"Property isn't worth killing for", says who? The crooks obviously didn't think "property isn't worth getting killed for."</p>
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		<title>By: lionheart</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2008/07/04/was-it-self-defense-or-murder/comment-page-4/#comment-746187</link>
		<dc:creator>lionheart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 23:09:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/?p=17164#comment-746187</guid>
		<description>Absolutely not justified. How is a life worth some jewelry? What the burglars were doing were wrong, but it was obviously not self defense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Absolutely not justified. How is a life worth some jewelry? What the burglars were doing were wrong, but it was obviously not self defense.</p>
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		<title>By: shootTHErupublicunts</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2008/07/04/was-it-self-defense-or-murder/comment-page-4/#comment-731213</link>
		<dc:creator>shootTHErupublicunts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2008 12:50:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/?p=17164#comment-731213</guid>
		<description>It was Defense and the crooks took that chance and lost shoot them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It was Defense and the crooks took that chance and lost shoot them.</p>
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		<title>By: BB</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2008/07/04/was-it-self-defense-or-murder/comment-page-4/#comment-722333</link>
		<dc:creator>BB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 19:17:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/?p=17164#comment-722333</guid>
		<description>I say good job!!! If more people did this, there would be less burglars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I say good job!!! If more people did this, there would be less burglars.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2008/07/04/was-it-self-defense-or-murder/comment-page-4/#comment-649798</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 03:08:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/?p=17164#comment-649798</guid>
		<description>To Roadnate:
&quot;This case meets neither of those definitions&quot;??  He told the operator &quot;I&#039;m gonna kill him&quot;; we&#039;re not talking a homicide here.  He had intent to kill those men and ignored repeated instructions to not do so.  You can&#039;t tell me he was going to get off the phone, step off the porch, and fire warning shots into after telling the operator those four words.

&quot;He warned them to stop...&quot;, even police officiers can&#039;t just fire their weapons willy-nilly with just a warning.  They need to be in mortal danger, or mortal danger has to be presented to others.  Both victims were unarmed.  Does Mr. Horn have some kind of &quot;license to kill&quot; like James Bond?

He wasn&#039;t defending innocent PEOPLE from thugs, he was defending a TV set from thugs.  I&#039;d hate to think I can&#039;t give my brother-in-law the keys to my house to pick something up for me in, in fears of my crazy neighbor whose never seen him possibly shooting him fatally.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Roadnate:<br />
"This case meets neither of those definitions"??  He told the operator "I'm gonna kill him"; we're not talking a homicide here.  He had intent to kill those men and ignored repeated instructions to not do so.  You can't tell me he was going to get off the phone, step off the porch, and fire warning shots into after telling the operator those four words.</p>
<p>"He warned them to stop...", even police officiers can't just fire their weapons willy-nilly with just a warning.  They need to be in mortal danger, or mortal danger has to be presented to others.  Both victims were unarmed.  Does Mr. Horn have some kind of "license to kill" like James Bond?</p>
<p>He wasn't defending innocent PEOPLE from thugs, he was defending a TV set from thugs.  I'd hate to think I can't give my brother-in-law the keys to my house to pick something up for me in, in fears of my crazy neighbor whose never seen him possibly shooting him fatally.</p>
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		<title>By: Granturista</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2008/07/04/was-it-self-defense-or-murder/comment-page-4/#comment-648196</link>
		<dc:creator>Granturista</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 02:45:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/?p=17164#comment-648196</guid>
		<description>&quot;I’m gonna kill him&quot;.
Oh sure, Jesus is doing thumbs up, since Joe Horn
stood up and defended innocent..stuff.
The world is not made of &quot;the good ones&quot; and 
&quot;the evil ones&quot;, it&#039;s made of people making good or
bad choices, and some of the latter are caused by
desperation.
Joe Horn himself made a bad choice, he made his own
justice, and his blurry sense of justice took two lives.
A quite high price for a good neighbourhood.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"I’m gonna kill him".<br />
Oh sure, Jesus is doing thumbs up, since Joe Horn<br />
stood up and defended innocent..stuff.<br />
The world is not made of "the good ones" and<br />
"the evil ones", it's made of people making good or<br />
bad choices, and some of the latter are caused by<br />
desperation.<br />
Joe Horn himself made a bad choice, he made his own<br />
justice, and his blurry sense of justice took two lives.<br />
A quite high price for a good neighbourhood.</p>
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		<title>By: roadnate</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2008/07/04/was-it-self-defense-or-murder/comment-page-4/#comment-648168</link>
		<dc:creator>roadnate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 01:57:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/?p=17164#comment-648168</guid>
		<description>It seems that a lot of people are having trouble with the difference between murder and homicide.  Homicide is the killing of a person.  Murder is a subset of homicide usually defined as the unlawful killing of a person with malice aforethought.  This varies slightly from nation to nation, but that is basically the definition of murder in the US.  
This case meets neither of those definitions.  He warned them to stop before shooting, and he was found not guilty in a court of law.  He killed two men, he didn&#039;t murder anyone.  
He stopped two people from robbing his neighbor, and I would do the same for my neighbors.  I am certainly glad that I do not live next to many of the people posting here.  God forbid people stand up and defend innocent people from thugs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems that a lot of people are having trouble with the difference between murder and homicide.  Homicide is the killing of a person.  Murder is a subset of homicide usually defined as the unlawful killing of a person with malice aforethought.  This varies slightly from nation to nation, but that is basically the definition of murder in the US.<br />
This case meets neither of those definitions.  He warned them to stop before shooting, and he was found not guilty in a court of law.  He killed two men, he didn't murder anyone.<br />
He stopped two people from robbing his neighbor, and I would do the same for my neighbors.  I am certainly glad that I do not live next to many of the people posting here.  God forbid people stand up and defend innocent people from thugs.</p>
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		<title>By: Just James</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2008/07/04/was-it-self-defense-or-murder/comment-page-4/#comment-647830</link>
		<dc:creator>Just James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 17:58:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/?p=17164#comment-647830</guid>
		<description>actually, he could still get into heaven.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>actually, he could still get into heaven.</p>
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		<title>By: Granturista</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2008/07/04/was-it-self-defense-or-murder/comment-page-4/#comment-647749</link>
		<dc:creator>Granturista</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 16:42:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/?p=17164#comment-647749</guid>
		<description>This is my rifle. There are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend. It is my life. I must 
master it as I master my life. My rifle, without me is 
useless. Without my rifle, I am useless. I must fire my 
rifle true. I must shoot straighter than any enemy who 
is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots 
me. I will....

God bless America and Mr Horn, who will not surely
gain admission into Heaven..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is my rifle. There are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend. It is my life. I must<br />
master it as I master my life. My rifle, without me is<br />
useless. Without my rifle, I am useless. I must fire my<br />
rifle true. I must shoot straighter than any enemy who<br />
is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots<br />
me. I will....</p>
<p>God bless America and Mr Horn, who will not surely<br />
gain admission into Heaven..</p>
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		<title>By: JivesTheButler</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2008/07/04/was-it-self-defense-or-murder/comment-page-4/#comment-646917</link>
		<dc:creator>JivesTheButler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 08:30:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/?p=17164#comment-646917</guid>
		<description>DOJ, you win many internets! 10/10 for a perfect post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DOJ, you win many internets! 10/10 for a perfect post.</p>
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		<title>By: Hans Persson</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2008/07/04/was-it-self-defense-or-murder/comment-page-4/#comment-646883</link>
		<dc:creator>Hans Persson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 08:07:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/?p=17164#comment-646883</guid>
		<description>Only an American would even pose the question about whether this is murder or not. Of course it is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Only an American would even pose the question about whether this is murder or not. Of course it is.</p>
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		<title>By: DOJ</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2008/07/04/was-it-self-defense-or-murder/comment-page-4/#comment-646564</link>
		<dc:creator>DOJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 01:23:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/?p=17164#comment-646564</guid>
		<description>In this case, &quot;Castle Doctrine&quot; refers to Frank Castle</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In this case, "Castle Doctrine" refers to Frank Castle</p>
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		<title>By: Terry</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2008/07/04/was-it-self-defense-or-murder/comment-page-4/#comment-646529</link>
		<dc:creator>Terry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 00:04:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/?p=17164#comment-646529</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think Joe Horn thought it through, now he&#039;s got to worry about the friends and family of the 2 he shot taking revenge. I bet every time he hears a car go by or a bump in the night he has to reach for his shot gun. Every time he go&#039;s out he&#039;d be looking over his shoulder. He&#039;s also have to worry about the safety of his family.

He&#039;ll have a life of paranoia and worry after what he did. Anyone that does what Horn did would end up with the same set of concerns.

I&#039;d rather just fill in a claim form and get new for old under my insurance policy than having to spend years worrying about revenge attacks for shooting unarmed men leaving a scene in the back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don't think Joe Horn thought it through, now he's got to worry about the friends and family of the 2 he shot taking revenge. I bet every time he hears a car go by or a bump in the night he has to reach for his shot gun. Every time he go's out he'd be looking over his shoulder. He's also have to worry about the safety of his family.</p>
<p>He'll have a life of paranoia and worry after what he did. Anyone that does what Horn did would end up with the same set of concerns.</p>
<p>I'd rather just fill in a claim form and get new for old under my insurance policy than having to spend years worrying about revenge attacks for shooting unarmed men leaving a scene in the back.</p>
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		<title>By: Tod</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2008/07/04/was-it-self-defense-or-murder/comment-page-4/#comment-646475</link>
		<dc:creator>Tod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 22:17:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/?p=17164#comment-646475</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve seen a lot of postings about leaving the thieves fate up to the police after they left, that the homeowner wasn&#039;t justified in his actions. 

Just keep in mind the burglars intentions aren&#039;t known. All we know about them is that they were desperate men, willing to commit a felony. I have female friends whose domiciles were burgled, and private things like underwear were taken. We know how well the rehabilitation system works. 

To me, a person who steps on my property with felonious intent IS taking his life in his hands, since I&#039;m not willing to take chances on his good nature to keep me and mine from harm.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I've seen a lot of postings about leaving the thieves fate up to the police after they left, that the homeowner wasn't justified in his actions. </p>
<p>Just keep in mind the burglars intentions aren't known. All we know about them is that they were desperate men, willing to commit a felony. I have female friends whose domiciles were burgled, and private things like underwear were taken. We know how well the rehabilitation system works. </p>
<p>To me, a person who steps on my property with felonious intent IS taking his life in his hands, since I'm not willing to take chances on his good nature to keep me and mine from harm.</p>
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		<title>By: fireflicker</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2008/07/04/was-it-self-defense-or-murder/comment-page-4/#comment-646395</link>
		<dc:creator>fireflicker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 21:07:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/?p=17164#comment-646395</guid>
		<description>I think this ol&#039; man has been listening to too much gangster rap music. Now he&#039;s going to jail &#039;cause he a gangster n&#039; G to the U to the ILTY.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this ol' man has been listening to too much gangster rap music. Now he's going to jail 'cause he a gangster n' G to the U to the ILTY.</p>
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		<title>By: Just James</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2008/07/04/was-it-self-defense-or-murder/comment-page-4/#comment-646326</link>
		<dc:creator>Just James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 20:23:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/?p=17164#comment-646326</guid>
		<description>1 not all Americans are gun toting vigilante&#039;s
2 They guys &#039;running from a man with a gun&#039; were also running from the scene of a crime. He warned them to stop, and they kept going (granted he shot the only other witnesses)
If I come out of a 7-11 with a slurpee I know I paid for, and I hear &quot;Move and your dead&quot; I stop, just in case.
3 all the people who say it&#039;s just stuff, aren&#039;t really thinking that statement through. It&#039;s not just stuff, if it was just stuff, people wouldn&#039;t own it. Maybe it&#039;s someone&#039;s first DVD player, or a gift from a loved one, or something left to you by someone that passed away, or maybe you just work hard to buy the things you want/need. Either way it sucks to have someone just decide it&#039;s easier to take it from you, NO MATTER what their reason is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1 not all Americans are gun toting vigilante's<br />
2 They guys 'running from a man with a gun' were also running from the scene of a crime. He warned them to stop, and they kept going (granted he shot the only other witnesses)<br />
If I come out of a 7-11 with a slurpee I know I paid for, and I hear "Move and your dead" I stop, just in case.<br />
3 all the people who say it's just stuff, aren't really thinking that statement through. It's not just stuff, if it was just stuff, people wouldn't own it. Maybe it's someone's first DVD player, or a gift from a loved one, or something left to you by someone that passed away, or maybe you just work hard to buy the things you want/need. Either way it sucks to have someone just decide it's easier to take it from you, NO MATTER what their reason is.</p>
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		<title>By: Chojiro</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2008/07/04/was-it-self-defense-or-murder/comment-page-4/#comment-646314</link>
		<dc:creator>Chojiro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 20:19:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/?p=17164#comment-646314</guid>
		<description>That is utter twaddle thenight_1. The two burglars were in ANOTHER YARD,(or perhaps you didnt see the two-dozen times they mentioned that?) running AWAY from him(that lawyer of his needs a good blow to the head with a blunt object). But that dosent really matter considering HE WAS ALREADY SAFE IN HIS HOUSE BEHIND A LOCKED DOOR! And that whole bit about a cop witnessing it is BULLSHIT! Last time I checked, cops don&#039;t go through three months of training just so they can stand around and witness crimes.

This is how I choose most of my opinions. By siding against the people who never actually read anything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is utter twaddle thenight_1. The two burglars were in ANOTHER YARD,(or perhaps you didnt see the two-dozen times they mentioned that?) running AWAY from him(that lawyer of his needs a good blow to the head with a blunt object). But that dosent really matter considering HE WAS ALREADY SAFE IN HIS HOUSE BEHIND A LOCKED DOOR! And that whole bit about a cop witnessing it is BULLSHIT! Last time I checked, cops don't go through three months of training just so they can stand around and witness crimes.</p>
<p>This is how I choose most of my opinions. By siding against the people who never actually read anything.</p>
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		<title>By: bruce</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2008/07/04/was-it-self-defense-or-murder/comment-page-4/#comment-646281</link>
		<dc:creator>bruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 20:03:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/?p=17164#comment-646281</guid>
		<description>exactly, why the hell are people weeping for the criminals? They knew the risk, when they decided to break they law.
And did the 911 operator ever say, &#039;the police are almost there&#039;? &quot;did she ask which way they were headed?&quot; Hell no, they knew the police wouldn&#039;t be there in time to do anything but take a report, and tell him that that stuff is as good as gone. 

The guy definitely needs to be punished, don&#039;t get me wrong. But if a few criminals think twice now, and people in the area fell safer, that can&#039;t be bad</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>exactly, why the hell are people weeping for the criminals? They knew the risk, when they decided to break they law.<br />
And did the 911 operator ever say, 'the police are almost there'? "did she ask which way they were headed?" Hell no, they knew the police wouldn't be there in time to do anything but take a report, and tell him that that stuff is as good as gone. </p>
<p>The guy definitely needs to be punished, don't get me wrong. But if a few criminals think twice now, and people in the area fell safer, that can't be bad</p>
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		<title>By: thenight_1</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2008/07/04/was-it-self-defense-or-murder/comment-page-4/#comment-646200</link>
		<dc:creator>thenight_1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 19:10:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/?p=17164#comment-646200</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve heard the &#039;stuff is not worth a life&#039; argument before and my response is this:  In this country, a criminal knows that they may meet armed resistance during their crime.  THEY make the decision that stuff is worth more than their life.

As I understand this case, the criminals moved into HIS yard and toward him.  That is when he felt threatened.  There were police offers who witnessed the shooting and still there was not enough evidence to convict Mr Horn.  That means under our laws he is not a murderer.

I&#039;d be happy to have him as my neighbor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I've heard the 'stuff is not worth a life' argument before and my response is this:  In this country, a criminal knows that they may meet armed resistance during their crime.  THEY make the decision that stuff is worth more than their life.</p>
<p>As I understand this case, the criminals moved into HIS yard and toward him.  That is when he felt threatened.  There were police offers who witnessed the shooting and still there was not enough evidence to convict Mr Horn.  That means under our laws he is not a murderer.</p>
<p>I'd be happy to have him as my neighbor.</p>
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		<title>By: Jitterbuggery</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2008/07/04/was-it-self-defense-or-murder/comment-page-4/#comment-646100</link>
		<dc:creator>Jitterbuggery</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 17:41:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/?p=17164#comment-646100</guid>
		<description>By living under the protections and benefits of a society we are tacitly agreeing to do one of two things: live by its rules (as outlined in constitutional law all the way down to city ordinance), or try to change it through accepted channels. Re: The Crito, Sophocles.

This man was doing neither. The accepted legal route for dealing with criminals is apprehension, either through citizen&#039;s arrest (which does not cover lethal force) or by calling the authorities, which he did. This man accepted all the benefits of our society and then turned around and abandoned his responsibility to control his emotions in a situation when he was not protecting anyone&#039;s life.

I agree with many of the above posters, it does not matter if it was his stuff or his neighbor&#039;s, his moral responsibility was the same. However, that moral responsibility did not cover superseding the established justice system with the clear intent to kill, rather than stop, the criminals. 

Would we be ok with this  if it was a 16 year old 4.0 GPA student with no prior criminal record who was stealing money to pay for  his sister&#039;s brain  operation? In this admittedly unlikely scenario, the fact that the shooter overstepped his legal and moral rights would be a tragedy rather than a controversy. If this same do gooder kid had held someone up at knifepoint for the money, then deadly force would be warranted. As average citizens we are granted the right to use deadly force only to protect our safety, not to shoot fleeing criminals in the back.

The fact that it was not the 4.0 student who was killed is inconsequential because the shooter could not possibly have known who it was that he was so eager to kill. 

Long story short, we cannot live in a society where the punishment for theft is death. As much as we might want to get revenge on those who steal our treasured and hard earned belongings, we value the freedom to make mistakes, and to forgive the very human errors of others. And if the justice system, congress, and the executive branch (military courts) all agree that killing to protect property, rather than safety, is unacceptable then we have no right to go above their decisions. To do otherwise is criminal.

The jury was wrong, both on moral and legal grounds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By living under the protections and benefits of a society we are tacitly agreeing to do one of two things: live by its rules (as outlined in constitutional law all the way down to city ordinance), or try to change it through accepted channels. Re: The Crito, Sophocles.</p>
<p>This man was doing neither. The accepted legal route for dealing with criminals is apprehension, either through citizen's arrest (which does not cover lethal force) or by calling the authorities, which he did. This man accepted all the benefits of our society and then turned around and abandoned his responsibility to control his emotions in a situation when he was not protecting anyone's life.</p>
<p>I agree with many of the above posters, it does not matter if it was his stuff or his neighbor's, his moral responsibility was the same. However, that moral responsibility did not cover superseding the established justice system with the clear intent to kill, rather than stop, the criminals. </p>
<p>Would we be ok with this  if it was a 16 year old 4.0 GPA student with no prior criminal record who was stealing money to pay for  his sister's brain  operation? In this admittedly unlikely scenario, the fact that the shooter overstepped his legal and moral rights would be a tragedy rather than a controversy. If this same do gooder kid had held someone up at knifepoint for the money, then deadly force would be warranted. As average citizens we are granted the right to use deadly force only to protect our safety, not to shoot fleeing criminals in the back.</p>
<p>The fact that it was not the 4.0 student who was killed is inconsequential because the shooter could not possibly have known who it was that he was so eager to kill. </p>
<p>Long story short, we cannot live in a society where the punishment for theft is death. As much as we might want to get revenge on those who steal our treasured and hard earned belongings, we value the freedom to make mistakes, and to forgive the very human errors of others. And if the justice system, congress, and the executive branch (military courts) all agree that killing to protect property, rather than safety, is unacceptable then we have no right to go above their decisions. To do otherwise is criminal.</p>
<p>The jury was wrong, both on moral and legal grounds.</p>
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		<title>By: 24Slashing</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2008/07/04/was-it-self-defense-or-murder/comment-page-4/#comment-646005</link>
		<dc:creator>24Slashing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 17:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/?p=17164#comment-646005</guid>
		<description>If you don&#039;t want to get shot, don&#039;t commit crimes. Pretty simple to me. I have the utmost faith that Mr. Horn would not have killed those 2 men if they had not been robbing his neighbour and society. Fewer criminals means fewer crimes. Maybe he was aiming for their legs and is a really bad shot. Maybe criminal illegal immigrants will stay and rob their own people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you don't want to get shot, don't commit crimes. Pretty simple to me. I have the utmost faith that Mr. Horn would not have killed those 2 men if they had not been robbing his neighbour and society. Fewer criminals means fewer crimes. Maybe he was aiming for their legs and is a really bad shot. Maybe criminal illegal immigrants will stay and rob their own people.</p>
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		<title>By: the lord</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2008/07/04/was-it-self-defense-or-murder/comment-page-4/#comment-645938</link>
		<dc:creator>the lord</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 16:50:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/?p=17164#comment-645938</guid>
		<description>the question is what did the homeowners think?
U know the poeple who&#039;s house was being robed
did anybody ask them what was their opinion on the matter......i havnt heard anything

well i did here on of the homeowners say &quot;their just things&quot; 

from waht i remeber they where on vacation and in no harm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the question is what did the homeowners think?<br />
U know the poeple who's house was being robed<br />
did anybody ask them what was their opinion on the matter......i havnt heard anything</p>
<p>well i did here on of the homeowners say "their just things" </p>
<p>from waht i remeber they where on vacation and in no harm</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Giachetti</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2008/07/04/was-it-self-defense-or-murder/comment-page-4/#comment-645768</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Giachetti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 13:53:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/?p=17164#comment-645768</guid>
		<description>Dave, go spam some other site you underhanded twat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave, go spam some other site you underhanded twat.</p>
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		<title>By: Tiny Dancer</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2008/07/04/was-it-self-defense-or-murder/comment-page-4/#comment-645730</link>
		<dc:creator>Tiny Dancer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 13:17:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/?p=17164#comment-645730</guid>
		<description>How can it not be murder? He shot two unarmed men in the back, that&#039;s murder in my book. He has the perfect right to protect his &quot;castle&quot;, sure, but that doesn&#039;t include chasing unarmed burglars down the street and killing them in cold blood. His life was not threatened. I think the dispatcher had it right, is it really worth killing someone over property? Threaten me or my family, I&#039;ll grab the closest weapon (which would be a kitchen knife or something, no guns in this Canadian&#039;s home) and take you out. Steal my stereo and I&#039;m calling the cops.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How can it not be murder? He shot two unarmed men in the back, that's murder in my book. He has the perfect right to protect his "castle", sure, but that doesn't include chasing unarmed burglars down the street and killing them in cold blood. His life was not threatened. I think the dispatcher had it right, is it really worth killing someone over property? Threaten me or my family, I'll grab the closest weapon (which would be a kitchen knife or something, no guns in this Canadian's home) and take you out. Steal my stereo and I'm calling the cops.</p>
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		<title>By: amdela</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2008/07/04/was-it-self-defense-or-murder/comment-page-4/#comment-645728</link>
		<dc:creator>amdela</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 13:16:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/?p=17164#comment-645728</guid>
		<description>Absolutely a murderer.  He shot them in the back as they were leaving, he was no longer in direct danger, and shot them only to retaliate, not to save himself for harm.  Texas got it very very wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Absolutely a murderer.  He shot them in the back as they were leaving, he was no longer in direct danger, and shot them only to retaliate, not to save himself for harm.  Texas got it very very wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: davedonelson</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2008/07/04/was-it-self-defense-or-murder/comment-page-4/#comment-645646</link>
		<dc:creator>davedonelson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 12:06:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/?p=17164#comment-645646</guid>
		<description>How did he know they weren&#039;t helping his neighbor move?

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.heartofdiamonds.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Dave Donelson, author of Heart of Diamonds&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How did he know they weren't helping his neighbor move?</p>
<p><a href="http://www.heartofdiamonds.com" rel="nofollow">Dave Donelson, author of Heart of Diamonds</a></p>
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		<title>By: Lenore</title>
		<link>http://www.neatorama.com/2008/07/04/was-it-self-defense-or-murder/comment-page-4/#comment-645409</link>
		<dc:creator>Lenore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 06:39:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neatorama.com/?p=17164#comment-645409</guid>
		<description>I usually LOVE the castle doctrine, but in this case it was misused.  They were fleeing, they were stealing stuff, and he should have shot them in the leg.

You don&#039;t aim to kill.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I usually LOVE the castle doctrine, but in this case it was misused.  They were fleeing, they were stealing stuff, and he should have shot them in the leg.</p>
<p>You don't aim to kill.</p>
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