Comments on: The American Gun and Safety Paradox http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/the-american-gun-and-safety-paradox/ The Neat Side of the Web Fri, 16 May 2008 21:49:17 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Wheat http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/the-american-gun-and-safety-paradox/#comment-530939 Wheat Wed, 30 Apr 2008 00:17:45 +0000 http://www.neatorama.com/?p=15931#comment-530939 P.S. Play with the drop down menus, it's fun! P.S.

Play with the drop down menus, it’s fun!

]]> By: Wheat http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/the-american-gun-and-safety-paradox/#comment-530938 Wheat Wed, 30 Apr 2008 00:16:25 +0000 http://www.neatorama.com/?p=15931#comment-530938 Come to peaceful Baltimore: http://essentials.baltimoresun.com/micro_sun/homicides/?range=2007&district=all&zipcode=all&age=all&gender=all&race=all&cause=all&article=all&show_results=Show+Results Stay in the inner harbor... Enjoy! Come to peaceful Baltimore:

http://essentials.baltimoresun.com/micro_sun/homicides/?range=2007&dis trict=all&zipcode=all&age=all&gender=all&race=all&cause=all&article=al l&show_results=Show+Results

Stay in the inner harbor… Enjoy!

]]> By: Skipweasel http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/the-american-gun-and-safety-paradox/#comment-530362 Skipweasel Tue, 29 Apr 2008 17:56:53 +0000 http://www.neatorama.com/?p=15931#comment-530362 I also wonder to whom in Britain he's been speaking. I don't feel threatened walking around towns here, nor does my 4'9" wife! I also wonder to whom in Britain he’s been speaking. I don’t feel threatened walking around towns here, nor does my 4′9″ wife!

]]> By: Ride Fast http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/the-american-gun-and-safety-paradox/#comment-529466 Ride Fast Tue, 29 Apr 2008 03:18:59 +0000 http://www.neatorama.com/?p=15931#comment-529466 @ Allen - Worse, the study only looked at homes where someone had been shot. No homes with guns where no one was shot were included. @ Allen - Worse, the study only looked at homes where someone had been shot. No homes with guns where no one was shot were included.

]]> By: aj http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/the-american-gun-and-safety-paradox/#comment-529303 aj Mon, 28 Apr 2008 23:55:15 +0000 http://www.neatorama.com/?p=15931#comment-529303 Wow Dazz, You're seriously claiming that having the highest incarceration right in the world and not the absolute largest murder rate is somehow a sign of success? That's astounding. Wow Dazz,
You’re seriously claiming that having the highest incarceration right in the world and not the absolute largest murder rate is somehow a sign of success?
That’s astounding.

]]> By: Allen http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/the-american-gun-and-safety-paradox/#comment-529112 Allen Mon, 28 Apr 2008 22:09:00 +0000 http://www.neatorama.com/?p=15931#comment-529112 The factoid about guns being '20 times more likely' (actually, the famous study said '43 times more likely') was a terribly flawed study. It was done by totalling homicides, suicides, and accidental deaths in a single county (King county, WA), and comparing the number against the number of justifiable homicides. During the period they looked at, there were a total of four justifiable homicides. The vast majority of the firearm related deaths (nearly 90%) were suicide. If the absence of a firearm made suicides less likely, that would be one thing, but multiple studies have found no correlation between the availability of guns and the rate of suicide. Gun control reduces gun suicides, but has no effect on the general rate of suicides. Ditch the suicides from the study, and you get a 2.4 rate of accidental deaths or homicides to every justifiable shooting (of course, by that time, your sample size is small enough to question the validity of the data). Some might argue that's still a good reason for gun control, in that more people die unjustifiably than justifiably, but the study did not take into account any situation where a gun was used non-lethally (whether as a deterrent or by wounding) to stop a household invader. The study also included among the murderers a few who were charged with murder but acquitted by juries on the grounds of self-defence. The factoid about guns being ‘20 times more likely’ (actually, the famous study said ‘43 times more likely’) was a terribly flawed study. It was done by totalling homicides, suicides, and accidental deaths in a single county (King county, WA), and comparing the number against the number of justifiable homicides. During the period they looked at, there were a total of four justifiable homicides. The vast majority of the firearm related deaths (nearly 90%) were suicide. If the absence of a firearm made suicides less likely, that would be one thing, but multiple studies have found no correlation between the availability of guns and the rate of suicide. Gun control reduces gun suicides, but has no effect on the general rate of suicides.

Ditch the suicides from the study, and you get a 2.4 rate of accidental deaths or homicides to every justifiable shooting (of course, by that time, your sample size is small enough to question the validity of the data). Some might argue that’s still a good reason for gun control, in that more people die unjustifiably than justifiably, but the study did not take into account any situation where a gun was used non-lethally (whether as a deterrent or by wounding) to stop a household invader. The study also included among the murderers a few who were charged with murder but acquitted by juries on the grounds of self-defence.

]]> By: fool http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/the-american-gun-and-safety-paradox/#comment-528983 fool Mon, 28 Apr 2008 20:33:45 +0000 http://www.neatorama.com/?p=15931#comment-528983 This BBC article doesn't really seem to have a point or coherent argument. Why is the foreign press under the impression that the US is some kind of monolithic place, and are always so suprised to find different kinds of people and different conditions in different states and cities? I've obviously felt safer travelling around the countryside in England than I did in London. And I felt safer in the commercial center of London than in more dangerous neighborhoods.... and the same in New York.... Anyway, gun ownership is sort of independent of overall crime levels. It just happens that where they intersect there is the possability that people get shot. No different in any other country, except that it's easier to get a gun on the black market in the US than in the UK. This BBC article doesn’t really seem to have a point or coherent argument.

Why is the foreign press under the impression that the US is some kind of monolithic place, and are always so suprised to find different kinds of people and different conditions in different states and cities? I’ve obviously felt safer travelling around the countryside in England than I did in London. And I felt safer in the commercial center of London than in more dangerous neighborhoods…. and the same in New York….

Anyway, gun ownership is sort of independent of overall crime levels. It just happens that where they intersect there is the possability that people get shot. No different in any other country, except that it’s easier to get a gun on the black market in the US than in the UK.

]]> By: Jacques http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/the-american-gun-and-safety-paradox/#comment-528921 Jacques Mon, 28 Apr 2008 19:23:55 +0000 http://www.neatorama.com/?p=15931#comment-528921 Since when did Rupert Murdoch buy the BBC? This has more to do with the overabundance of drunken yobs in england than anything else. Since when did Rupert Murdoch buy the BBC?

This has more to do with the overabundance of drunken yobs in england than anything else.

]]> By: Ride Fast http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/the-american-gun-and-safety-paradox/#comment-528871 Ride Fast Mon, 28 Apr 2008 17:35:20 +0000 http://www.neatorama.com/?p=15931#comment-528871 @ K!P - I suggested a comparison to Europe because the population numbers are closer than comparing to Great Britain. There tend to be huge cultural differences comparing America to anyone else. Also, comparisons on a larger scale seem more illustrative than just looking at this month, or last years crime rates. Compare Europe to the US over the whole 20th century and blips in local crime don't matter so much. Of course, periods of open warfare have to be ignored for fairness. @ K!P - I suggested a comparison to Europe because the population numbers are closer than comparing to Great Britain.

There tend to be huge cultural differences comparing America to anyone else.

Also, comparisons on a larger scale seem more illustrative than just looking at this month, or last years crime rates.

Compare Europe to the US over the whole 20th century and blips in local crime don’t matter so much. Of course, periods of open warfare have to be ignored for fairness.

]]> By: someguy http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/the-american-gun-and-safety-paradox/#comment-528809 someguy Mon, 28 Apr 2008 16:08:41 +0000 http://www.neatorama.com/?p=15931#comment-528809 It's interesting people think that guns should be banned, even though a ban is explicitly prohibited in the constitution. But somehow it is a constitutional right to have an abortion, based on a "right to privacy." Something seems backwards about that. It’s interesting people think that guns should be banned, even though a ban is explicitly prohibited in the constitution.

But somehow it is a constitutional right to have an abortion, based on a “right to privacy.”

Something seems backwards about that.

]]> By: sparge http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/the-american-gun-and-safety-paradox/#comment-528752 sparge Mon, 28 Apr 2008 15:08:23 +0000 http://www.neatorama.com/?p=15931#comment-528752 So they are comparing the tourist districts of Manhattan to South London? Gee, I wonder which will be safer. So they are comparing the tourist districts of Manhattan to South London? Gee, I wonder which will be safer.

]]> By: DanO http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/the-american-gun-and-safety-paradox/#comment-528565 DanO Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:21:21 +0000 http://www.neatorama.com/?p=15931#comment-528565 all guns should be banned, handguns first. all guns should be banned, handguns first.

]]> By: Alannah http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/the-american-gun-and-safety-paradox/#comment-528544 Alannah Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:09:44 +0000 http://www.neatorama.com/?p=15931#comment-528544 *Dan* I don't think you can use Jeremy Clarkson as an authority on anything American. He admits that he hates everyone. Not to mention that Top Gear is a COMEDY. *Dan*

I don’t think you can use Jeremy Clarkson as an authority on anything American. He admits that he hates everyone. Not to mention that Top Gear is a COMEDY.

]]> By: drukus http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/the-american-gun-and-safety-paradox/#comment-528530 drukus Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:03:38 +0000 http://www.neatorama.com/?p=15931#comment-528530 Spin it anyway you want. The US is a scary place. Anyone who has lived in both the US and another developed country knows it. But it isn't about the laws, it is about the culture. You can regulate all you want but if people want guns people get guns. When guns are involved things escalate quicker. Right now, I live in Canada. However, I have lived in the US (Texas). In Canada, when something escalates (like a drunken fight at a bar) someone gets put in the hospital with fists and feet, worst case a knife. Same thing in the US, worst case is a gun. I'd rather not be shot, if I had the choice. Spin it anyway you want. The US is a scary place. Anyone who has lived in both the US and another developed country knows it. But it isn’t about the laws, it is about the culture. You can regulate all you want but if people want guns people get guns.

When guns are involved things escalate quicker. Right now, I live in Canada. However, I have lived in the US (Texas). In Canada, when something escalates (like a drunken fight at a bar) someone gets put in the hospital with fists and feet, worst case a knife. Same thing in the US, worst case is a gun.

I’d rather not be shot, if I had the choice.

]]> By: JET http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/the-american-gun-and-safety-paradox/#comment-528368 JET Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:52:28 +0000 http://www.neatorama.com/?p=15931#comment-528368 No roving gangs of hooligans in the US? Well, duh. Everyone's in cars instead. Violence is more prevalent in the US than in any other Western nation, and the incarceration rate is through the roof, higher than any other nation in the history of the world, including the worst dictatorships. Land of the free, huh? No roving gangs of hooligans in the US? Well, duh. Everyone’s in cars instead. Violence is more prevalent in the US than in any other Western nation, and the incarceration rate is through the roof, higher than any other nation in the history of the world, including the worst dictatorships. Land of the free, huh?

]]> By: K!P http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/the-american-gun-and-safety-paradox/#comment-528165 K!P Mon, 28 Apr 2008 07:34:39 +0000 http://www.neatorama.com/?p=15931#comment-528165 @ride fast: US murder rates are high, most of europe are lower. Crime rate is a bit higher in some parts of europe, just be advised you cant speak of one europe in this regard, HUGE cultural differences. @ride fast: US murder rates are high, most of europe are lower. Crime rate is a bit higher in some parts of europe, just be advised you cant speak of one europe in this regard, HUGE cultural differences.

]]> By: anathema http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/the-american-gun-and-safety-paradox/#comment-528062 anathema Mon, 28 Apr 2008 06:34:31 +0000 http://www.neatorama.com/?p=15931#comment-528062 Illegal guns don't just come from gun theft. They can also come from weapons trafficking and smuggling. Illegal guns don’t just come from gun theft. They can also come from weapons trafficking and smuggling.

]]> By: dazz http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/the-american-gun-and-safety-paradox/#comment-528005 dazz Mon, 28 Apr 2008 05:54:02 +0000 http://www.neatorama.com/?p=15931#comment-528005 More guns less crime is garbage. The reason crime has dropped in the US, is because the laws have been tough on crime. Highest incarceration rate in the world == less crime. As for only illegal guns shoot people. Well are these illegal guns stolen from legal owners? probably. So if the legal owners don't have guns then less guns to be stolen. So you people actually think that the guns are preventing the crime? and not having the highest incarceration rate in the world, and the most people in jail? Getting rid of the guns would hopefully prevent a lot of those high school shootings. Even if it prevented half of them, it would be a good thing. More guns less crime is garbage.

The reason crime has dropped in the US, is because the laws have been tough on crime.

Highest incarceration rate in the world == less crime.

As for only illegal guns shoot people. Well are these illegal guns stolen from legal owners? probably. So if the legal owners don’t have guns then less guns to be stolen.

So you people actually think that the guns are preventing the crime? and not having the highest incarceration rate in the world, and the most people in jail?

Getting rid of the guns would hopefully prevent a lot of those high school shootings. Even if it prevented half of them, it would be a good thing.

]]> By: anathema http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/the-american-gun-and-safety-paradox/#comment-527951 anathema Mon, 28 Apr 2008 04:52:01 +0000 http://www.neatorama.com/?p=15931#comment-527951 I wouldn't live anywhere except America, partly for this right. I trust my fellow citizens down here in El Paso to be responsible firearm owners. I live gunfree for now, but my father owns a handgun, my uncle owns a rifle, and I'll probably pick up a small one for myself soon. As an addendum, I just wanna mention I'm happy with Neatorama for presenting articles that come from both sides of the political aisle. I wouldn’t live anywhere except America, partly for this right. I trust my fellow citizens down here in El Paso to be responsible firearm owners. I live gunfree for now, but my father owns a handgun, my uncle owns a rifle, and I’ll probably pick up a small one for myself soon.

As an addendum, I just wanna mention I’m happy with Neatorama for presenting articles that come from both sides of the political aisle.

]]> By: Geekazoid http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/the-american-gun-and-safety-paradox/#comment-527909 Geekazoid Mon, 28 Apr 2008 04:14:25 +0000 http://www.neatorama.com/?p=15931#comment-527909 Right on the money Frank. I too have visited numerous countries overseas, and the U.S. where I live is by far the scariest. In California there have been a spate of seemingly random shootings where simple road rage caused people to use their guns. It doesn't help that Hollywood movies continue to churn out violent gun laden movie after another. Right on the money Frank. I too have visited numerous countries overseas, and the U.S. where I live is by far the scariest. In California there have been a spate of seemingly random shootings where simple road rage caused people to use their guns. It doesn’t help that Hollywood movies continue to churn out violent gun laden movie after another.

]]> By: frankfrankfrank http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/the-american-gun-and-safety-paradox/#comment-527852 frankfrankfrank Mon, 28 Apr 2008 03:30:14 +0000 http://www.neatorama.com/?p=15931#comment-527852 As soon as a registered gun owner kills someone s/he becomes a criminal. So anyone that shoots someone is a criminal. Having lived in 4 countries including the US - US is the scariest so far. Police get out of their cars with their guns drawn around here (in the US). It is a culture of violence - just look at the way the gun advocates respond to this type of post - with their 'it is our god damn right!' to own a gun. Now if only they would get so angry about real issues..... As soon as a registered gun owner kills someone s/he becomes a criminal. So anyone that shoots someone is a criminal.

Having lived in 4 countries including the US - US is the scariest so far. Police get out of their cars with their guns drawn around here (in the US).

It is a culture of violence - just look at the way the gun advocates respond to this type of post - with their ‘it is our god damn right!’ to own a gun. Now if only they would get so angry about real issues…..

]]> By: Tim http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/the-american-gun-and-safety-paradox/#comment-527803 Tim Mon, 28 Apr 2008 02:41:36 +0000 http://www.neatorama.com/?p=15931#comment-527803 More Guns, Less Crime book by John R. Lott. Professor at University of Chicago. Read it at http://books.google.com/ More Guns, Less Crime book by John R. Lott. Professor at University of Chicago. Read it at http://books.google.com/

]]> By: Dave http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/the-american-gun-and-safety-paradox/#comment-527780 Dave Mon, 28 Apr 2008 01:58:54 +0000 http://www.neatorama.com/?p=15931#comment-527780 Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than all my guns combined. Ted Kennedy’s car has killed more people than all my guns combined.

]]> By: ted http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/the-american-gun-and-safety-paradox/#comment-527758 ted Mon, 28 Apr 2008 01:39:48 +0000 http://www.neatorama.com/?p=15931#comment-527758 Here we go again... Canada has a lower crime rate than the USA because of its vastly smaller population, especially in urban centres. I saw parts of Bowling for Columbine and couldn't believe how Canada was represented as such a peaceful utopia. Gun laws do nothing to stop the criminals. Airport security is tight in the USA, but I've never been groped in public like I was at Heathrow. I think the security guard was checking to see if that was all me. Here we go again…
Canada has a lower crime rate than the USA because of its vastly smaller population, especially in urban centres. I saw parts of Bowling for Columbine and couldn’t believe how Canada was represented as such a peaceful utopia.

Gun laws do nothing to stop the criminals.

Airport security is tight in the USA, but I’ve never been groped in public like I was at Heathrow. I think the security guard was checking to see if that was all me.

]]> By: sam http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/the-american-gun-and-safety-paradox/#comment-527724 sam Mon, 28 Apr 2008 01:15:49 +0000 http://www.neatorama.com/?p=15931#comment-527724 That's one good thing about a country that is so litigious. You know if you say one wayward word, you'll find yourself in court and about 200,000 dollars lighter. People would rather just go about their business. That’s one good thing about a country that is so litigious. You know if you say one wayward word, you’ll find yourself in court and about 200,000 dollars lighter. People would rather just go about their business.

]]> By: Ride Fast http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/the-american-gun-and-safety-paradox/#comment-527710 Ride Fast Mon, 28 Apr 2008 01:00:22 +0000 http://www.neatorama.com/?p=15931#comment-527710 Quoting "facts" that have been shown to false doesn't prove your side is right. That "gun in the home is more dangerous to you than others" is BS. The murder rate in the United States is higher than some countries, not all. Instead of comparing the US to little Britain or Japan, compare the US to Europe, or Russia. You may be very surprised. And Canada just doesn't count, they're so damned polite :) Canada had almost no gun control until recently and their crime problems are rising, btw. Quoting “facts” that have been shown to false doesn’t prove your side is right. That “gun in the home is more dangerous to you than others” is BS.

The murder rate in the United States is higher than some countries, not all. Instead of comparing the US to little Britain or Japan, compare the US to Europe, or Russia. You may be very surprised. And Canada just doesn’t count, they’re so damned polite :)

Canada had almost no gun control until recently and their crime problems are rising, btw.

]]> By: Geekazoid http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/the-american-gun-and-safety-paradox/#comment-527680 Geekazoid Mon, 28 Apr 2008 00:36:04 +0000 http://www.neatorama.com/?p=15931#comment-527680 Tell these visiting British to spend some 'quality time' in places like Bayview Hunters Point, Cabrini Greens Housing projects, or the Jungles of South L.A. before giving us this America isn't so violent claptrap. Tell these visiting British to spend some ‘quality time’ in places like Bayview Hunters Point, Cabrini Greens Housing projects, or the Jungles of South L.A. before giving us this America isn’t so violent claptrap.

]]> By: fsmarch http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/the-american-gun-and-safety-paradox/#comment-527668 fsmarch Mon, 28 Apr 2008 00:24:29 +0000 http://www.neatorama.com/?p=15931#comment-527668 I agree w/ Ben B. To use a worn-out old expression, " Guns don't kill people, people do." I agree w/ Ben B. To use a worn-out old expression, ” Guns don’t kill people, people do.”

]]> By: Lamonstrous http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/the-american-gun-and-safety-paradox/#comment-527371 Lamonstrous Sun, 27 Apr 2008 21:43:25 +0000 http://www.neatorama.com/?p=15931#comment-527371 On the one hand, the myth of "violent America" is because the whole world sees the U.S. through its news, TV and movies (like the Sopranos) which distorts the view people have. That being said, the murder rate in the U.S. is much higher than in other countries. Britain has a lot of assaults, but much fewer murders. Canada has severe restrictions on guns and has a much lower gun and crime rate. There are more than just two ways of doing things. On the one hand, the myth of “violent America” is because the whole world sees the U.S. through its news, TV and movies (like the Sopranos) which distorts the view people have.

That being said, the murder rate in the U.S. is much higher than in other countries. Britain has a lot of assaults, but much fewer murders.

Canada has severe restrictions on guns and has a much lower gun and crime rate. There are more than just two ways of doing things.

]]> By: Craig http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/the-american-gun-and-safety-paradox/#comment-527328 Craig Sun, 27 Apr 2008 21:09:17 +0000 http://www.neatorama.com/?p=15931#comment-527328 @ Ben B Thank You! @ Ben B Thank You!

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