Beauty Contest Winner: Not a Man, Not Yet a Woman

1. wu jie
   March 17th, 2008 at 3:25 pm

   This says loads about Chinese standards of beauty.

2. peèle lemos
   March 17th, 2008 at 3:37 pm

   Xie Xiaoxing and the angry inch.

3. someguy
   March 17th, 2008 at 4:10 pm

   Ugh. When will people realize that you can't actually make someone a woman just by changing the way they look?

   I can surgically alter a dog to look like a pig, but in the end, it's still a dog.

4. Jake D.
   March 17th, 2008 at 4:35 pm

   That's an interesting article. But I want to know who that sexy Asian woman is in the picture. DAYUM!

5. DrJones
   March 17th, 2008 at 4:44 pm

   So, as a fan of It's Sunny in Philadelphia, I find this particular story especially funny.

   Anybody with me?

6. R.S
   March 17th, 2008 at 5:19 pm

   Interesting picture but doesn't deserve to win

7. Ash
   March 17th, 2008 at 5:38 pm

   Look at me guys, I think (x) is lame/stupid/etc. because I don't understand or accept (it).

   Seriously though, she's pretty. Sad that happened to her though (yes, her), but Thailand is pretty close; that could be another option.

8. Marc Forrester
   March 17th, 2008 at 5:41 pm

   someguy: Presumably, you'd say that changing a woman's body doesn't make her a man either, right? Well, what if something screws up, partial changes happen naturally in the womb, and a surgeon 'fixes' things in the wrong direction immediately after birth?

   Gender is wired into the brain, biology isn't perfect. Of course not everyone gets the matching body. A little empathy?

   On that note, why does this article repeatedly refer to someone who has declared themselves a woman as 'he'?

9. bean
   March 17th, 2008 at 5:47 pm

   Marc Forrester:
   Because HE has a Y chromosome. Unless HE can afford some kind of revolutionary gene therapy, HE will always be male.

10. Tempscire
    March 17th, 2008 at 5:54 pm

    Y'know, there's naturally-occurring instances of a person's outward gender (or developed biology) not meshing with their genetics. Would you insist someone who always thought of themselves as female start being male once they figured out the genetic mix-up?

11. Marc Forrester
    March 17th, 2008 at 6:20 pm

    bean: It's the chromosomes that bother you. Riiight. And in twenty years, when revolutionary gene therapy is available for $20 from the local pharmacy, you'll claim what? Atomic level maleness due to quantum entanglement with the time of their birth?

12. shecky
    March 17th, 2008 at 6:22 pm

    I'd hit it.

13. emptyminded
    March 17th, 2008 at 7:01 pm

    I wonder if China will now block access to Neatorama for providing this link?

14. Gaby
    March 17th, 2008 at 8:45 pm

    For what I've heard Neatorama is already blocked by China. Hmm.

15. ted
    March 17th, 2008 at 9:37 pm

    It's true, though. Simply removing the external sex organs and sculpting new facsimiles doesn't change a person into the opposite gender.

    Changing a dog into a pig isn't an apt analogy, since those are two different animals entirely. You can neuter your boy dog, but that doesn't make him a girl dog.

    I'm not against him changing his body if he can afford to; I just find the reasoning a little specious. You don't need to justify it with "gender is wired in the brain; biology isn't perfect". That just makes it somehow sadder.

16. Jsahko
    March 17th, 2008 at 10:32 pm

    @ someguy "I can surgically alter a dog to look like a pig, but in the end, it’s still a dog."

    A. No you can't.

    B. And if you could it would be a much happier dog - providing it was the dog's choice to live as a pig.

    C. Analogies are stupid and a total waste. One thing is never like another. Ever. And in this case simply not even close enough to bother with.

17. Tempscire
    March 17th, 2008 at 10:42 pm

    Simply removing the external sex organs and sculpting new facsimiles doesn’t change a person into the opposite gender. [...] You don’t need to justify it with “gender is wired in the brain; biology isn’t perfect”. That just makes it somehow sadder.

    "Sex" refers to male/female genitalia; "gender" refers to the social function of a sex. Those who undergo a sex change often feel they are a gender opposite to their sex and that the operation is simply setting things right, giving them an outward physical nature to match the inner.

    I'd say biology is more rigid about male/female, except that it really isn't; gender even less so. If you disagree with the dissociation between biology and mental/hormonal conditioning, then you are welcome to challenge the anthropological and sociological fields with your well-researched treatise on the nature of sexuality as it relates to gender.

18. Lo
    March 17th, 2008 at 11:43 pm

    Oh SHE'S absolutely gorgeous. I hope some day she's able to finish the surgeries so she can have the body she was really meant to have.

19. fz
    March 18th, 2008 at 12:39 am

    He was born a man and he will remain a man (albeit a very sexy man) as far as I'm concerned. He doesn't have ovaries, he can't give birth or perform the reproductive role of a female of the human species. He's just a guy who no longer has the ability to procreate.

    @Naysayers: Heres a question for you; would you hit it? (granted the full surgery was performed) If not, why? Because he used to be a man? He's a woman now though!? If you would hit it, well, you win.

20. MoonCake
    March 18th, 2008 at 6:18 am

    @Tempscire: you're absolutely right.

    SEX refers to the biological make-up, ie: boy/girl sex organs, chromosomes; GENDER refers to the socially constructed identity in which you recognize yourself. it's different with humans because we have a free will, whereas DOGS do not. it's inaccurate to compare this to a dog changing to a pig; those are two different species. only 1% of the US population is born with ambiguous sex organs, and if it seems as though one might be more prevelant than the other, doctors will go ahead and "correct" it by removing the lesser of the two. just imagine-- you're born with both sex organs and they "correct" you to be a girl. what if later in life you found out about this and your entire perspective is turned upside down because you could have been someone else? everyone in your life has known you as a girl, but now you feel like you've been denied a certain truth. just imagine the mental anquish you put yourself through.. the pressures of becoming a teenager ON TOP of not even feeling how you're "supposed" to. imagine telling your friends and family that you no longer identify yourself as a woman, rather, a man who unfortunately now LOOKS like a woman? what if your parents are die-hard Christians and don't support your decision because that's not what "God" wants? And then the story changes if you're still attracted to men then you'll be a GAY transsexual. then you'll be cast out by your parents, men and women alike, AND the gay community. wow, what a predicament. many people in this situation end up committing suicide. many other people stay in the closet and live a lie, completely tearing their insides apart and denying their own free will to appease societal standards set by people who say "if you're born a man, you will remain a man."

    i'm sorry, but society sucks. people are ridiculed for being BORN a certain way. they're discriminated against and brought down to a "tolerable" level, and we wonder why minorities commit more crimes. just think about what you say before you say it, know who you're talking to, and don't make assumptions that Xie Xiaoxing wants to be called "he" just because he was born that way.

21. J.
    March 18th, 2008 at 6:36 am

    Wow, fz ... "clever" - A woman who happened to be infertile, who doesn't have ovaries or lost them due to cancer is no longer a woman for you?
    What are you when you find have to out that you are not or no longer be able to procreate due to some erectile dysfunction which about every 4th American is suffering from some times during his livetime? What will you be? Only the twit?
    And at least as interesting: How will you decide on the chromosomes of the lovely girl you met, when she has the right "plumbing" down there ((Plastic surgery is offering stunning possibilities..) and she doesn't tell you? How can you be sure, that all girls you ever hitted or will hit are absolut xx without any gender/chromosome anomalities eventuelly not even known to themselves?

    @Bean
    What's a person with klinefelder syndrome who has albeit the female xx as also the male xy chromosome as they often have some XXY? Mal? Female?
    A woman with AIS (Androgene Insensitive Syndrome), who is a complete woman on the outside with female sex organs etc, where it's often only found out by chance later in live that she has a xy chromosome. What is she? A man although made a woman by nature from the first day in the womb?

    But back to Xie Xiaoxing ... what the heck is the "first phase of surgery".. making half of a vagina or what???
    And the "isn’t sure now whether he’s a man or a woman" and "can't confirm gender" ... what??? He/She doesn't know it him-/herself? And is definig him-/herself by what's (or not is) there now between her/his legs?
    And a chinese employers want to have a look at body cavings and doesn't decide on the gender by the passport/papers or as he/she is presenting him-/herself? Strange and weird story!

22. Robin
    March 18th, 2008 at 7:30 am

    FYI, it's considered polite to refer to a transgender individual by the pronouns of the gender they present as.

    Notice the woman in the picture is quite comfortable identifying as a woman. Those of you who protest "BUT HE'S A MAN" are the ones with the problem.

23. ted
    March 18th, 2008 at 10:29 am

    Tempscire, you completely miss my point by playing semantics.

    My point was you don't need to justify your sex change to the world by saying "I was born wrong."

    If this guy's comfortable living his life as a woman, he doesn't need to justify it to us.

    I certainly have no problem with him doing it, as I said, if he can afford to. But simply removing your sex organs does not make you any less a man than one who, say, lost his genitals in a war.

    Maybe one day they will have a treatment that will change people completely. If so, more power to those who would make such a choice.

24. Jsahko
    March 18th, 2008 at 12:55 pm

    #fz

    I have to want to "hit it" for her to be a woman? That's rich. Explain why I feel like hitting you right now then.

    heh. kidding. couldn't resist.

25. shecky
    March 18th, 2008 at 2:52 pm

    Simply removing the external sex organs and sculpting new facsimiles doesn’t change a person into the opposite gender.

    But it'll do.

26. someguy
    March 18th, 2008 at 3:06 pm

    Yes there are some physical birth/development problems, but at what point exactly does a man become a woman, as many of you say?

    Apparently this person satisfies some of you by simply declaring that he is a woman. Or are there other requirements? Do you have to dress like a woman, wear make-up, have plastic surgery, have hormone therapy? No, he only has to "identify" as a woman.

    If a man thinks he is a woman, he probably needs psychiatric help, not surgery. We wouldn't have this argument if the guy thought he was Santa Claus; why does it apply when he thinks he's female? He can put on a red suit, implant rosy cheeks, and take hormones to make him "jolly", but he ain't Santa, and he ain't a girl. Now I will wait to be called a hateful bigot.

27. Lasse
    March 18th, 2008 at 4:03 pm

    "He doesn’t have ovaries, he can’t give birth or perform the reproductive role of a female of the human species."

    That is just a question of how advanced medical technology is.

28. AnUnSi
    March 18th, 2008 at 5:20 pm

    Let's be grown-ups and face it. He is a psychologically disturbed man. And any medical personnel who would pretend that they could do anything about that are criminals. Case closed.

29. Tempscire
    March 18th, 2008 at 6:34 pm

    ted: Tempscire, you completely miss my point by playing semantics.

    Actually, I was just trying to correcting your vocabulary. If you're going to make an accurate argument about gender identity, you should use the correct words.

    And she does need to justify herself if people refuse to refer to her as female. People can be very ignorant about a lot of things; perhaps informing/correcting them could (ha) make a dent in their ignorance.

    Would anyone refuse to call someone by a nickname, because their birth certificate says something else and even if they're trying to present their name as something other, they're still really that original name? Even if they legally changed their name to the nickname-- hey, after all, that's not the name they were given at birth. Same idea, different scale; both tie into a person's identity. One just requires a more dramatic alteration.

    Yes, I got you didn't care what he did under the knife to be a she. I am amused, though, by the thought that this wouldn't even cross most people's minds if they walked past her on the street, and even the naysayers calling her a him, had they no other knowledge, would title her a Miss and might make passes at her without a second thought. Unless you've been in someone's pants, you don't really know what's there. =p So, for the casual observer, her identity is as good as 100% female, and should be addressed as such.

30. ted
    March 18th, 2008 at 9:57 pm

    Sorry, Tempscire, then you completely ignored my point by "correcting my vocabulary". Is that better?

    I'm not trying to make an accurate argument about gender identity - I'm giving my opinion on a subject.

    As for calling him a her, I wasn't uptight about that, either. Just pointed out what the article says: he's kinda stuck as neither.

31. Tempscire
    March 19th, 2008 at 1:13 am

    And if your opinion isn't fueled by adequate information, it's hardly an informed opinion worth paying attention to. Hence, semantics-picking.

    Anyway, I didn't really mean to pick on you in particular, since I did actually notice you took a moderate view of the matter, so I apologize for that. I went from addressing you to the "room" in general in a few places. Sorry for blurring the lines between the two.

32. //annie
    March 19th, 2008 at 2:33 am

    "He is a psychologically disturbed man. And any medical personnel who would pretend that they could do anything about that are criminals. Case closed."
    The official recommendations from PSA re: gender dysmorphia are that once you have established by certain stringent tests, and therapy sessions, that a person's gender (psychological/internal male/femaleness and social constructs of masculinity/femininity) is different from their sex (physical male/femaleness), the treatment will seek to reconcile this difference by changing SEX and thus treatment should continue as that person wishes, including and up to the point of 'sex reassignment surgery'. So the way to 'do [something] about [it]' is to reassign sex, so that sex and gender will match. This is not *at all* criminal in most first-world countries.
    The surgeries do not change the gender as this is psychological; it is arguable that they change sex as certain characteristics will remain. What is important is how the person can get by in society and how they feel they fit in. Even if you still feel they are their original sex, what does it matter? Are they hurting you?

33. fz
    March 19th, 2008 at 5:18 am

    "A woman who happened to be infertile, who doesn’t have ovaries or lost them due to cancer is no longer a woman for you?"

    No, she is a woman who has lost her ovaries. (i knew this would be the first response)

    "I have to want to “hit it” for her to be a woman? That’s rich. Explain why I feel like hitting you right now then."

    As in; get freaky. And no, I was just stating that if these people really recognise Mr Xie as a woman, they wouldn't have a problem with it.

    The "hit it" thing was a joke btw.

34. fz
    March 19th, 2008 at 5:29 am

    For the record, though, I have nothing against it. I'd think him as much as a man as a drag queen. I respect the choice that he takes the social/psychological(etc, etc) role of a woman but do not recognise him as one in conventional terms. I also respect that he wants to be treated as a woman, I wouldn't exactly walk up to him and say "excuse me, sir".

    At best I would say he's a dude who believes he's (should be?) woman, trapped in a "woman's" body.

35. HeyYouGuys
    May 13th, 2008 at 7:02 pm

    Whoever wrote this article needs to be shot in the face. Calling her a "him"? People need to learn some fucking respect -- if this is the way someone wants to live, let them. If they're living as a woman, then call them a woman.

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